Railroad Forums 

  • All Things WMATA 7000 Series

  • Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.
Discussion related to DC area passenger rail services from Northern Virginia to Baltimore, MD. Includes Light Rail and Baltimore Subway.

Moderators: mtuandrew, therock, Robert Paniagua

 #531606  by Sand Box John
 
"fl9m2026"
Unless the literature and data I previously read on the WMATA cars was incorrect, the brown stripes and red/white/blue end stripes, at least on the Rohr cars, were
not paint, but were made of decal material. This was allegedly done to save money and have a more "durable" medium for the color added to the cars. Why would WMATA need a purpose-built paint facility if this was the case, especially with stainless steel or brushed aluminum car bodies? Were the subsequent deliveries (Breda, CAFS, etc.) painted and not decaled? Was my original info incorrect, or did WMATA decide to paint the brown stripes once the decals deteriorated instead of going the route of applying new decals?

I maybe wrong as hell at to what type of method was used to apply the brown on the 1k cars. My recollection was that was paint. In the late 1980s the brown began to delaminate from the aluminum car body like some automotive coatings peel from a cars.

As to why would WMATA need a purpose built paint facility. WMATA has a number of non revenue pieces of rolling stock that are painted. I believe they have a make shift paint booth in the (FMC) Facilities Maintenance Center building in Alexandria Yard.

 #532547  by fl9m2026
 
Sand Box John wrote:
I maybe wrong as hell at to what type of method was used to apply the brown on the 1k cars. My recollection was that was paint. In the late 1980s the brown began to delaminate from the aluminum car body like some automotive coatings peel from a cars.

As to why would WMATA need a purpose built paint facility. WMATA has a number of non revenue pieces of rolling stock that are painted. I believe they have a make shift paint booth in the (FMC) Facilities Maintenance Center building in Alexandria Yard.
Good point John! I wasn't thinking about the MOW and non-revenue equipment. I also remember on several visits to DC in the late 80's the brown side stripes peeling away, and in some instances, entire sections gone, leaving the brushed aluminum underneath showing.

IIRC I initally got my info regarding the decals from the book "The Story of Metro". It discussed the decoration of the Rohr's when delivered, and even intimated that originally one idea was to have all red railcars! I'll have to dig out my first printing copy and make sure the info I had was correct, and it wasn't just the red/white/blue end stripes that were decals.

 #532567  by Sand Box John
 
"fl9m2026"
IIRC I initally got my info regarding the decals from the book "The Story of Metro". It discussed the decoration of the Rohr's when delivered, and even intimated that originally one idea was to have all red railcars!


See this page from the web site of the author that wrote The Great Society Subway.

 #532913  by fl9m2026
 
OMG that's hideous!!! Imagine that roaring out of the tunnel into one of the barrel-vaulted stations.... it's Satan's Subway!!!! :-D

 #532941  by Mirai Zikasu
 
Well, red Metro cars would certainly look shocking given the conservative color scheme of the system. However, personally I don't think I would be getting a Satanic scare seeing one of those barreling into the station inasmuch as I would be getting a Red Scare. To think that back then the powers that were wanted to take out Reds in Vietnam, and Harry Weese wanted to put Reds in our Metro, instead...

 #532994  by Sand Box John
 
The reasoning Harry Weese used to justify the red cars had to do with his belief that all of the action and color in the station should originate from motion of the trains. The neutral hues of the stations would amplify the presents of the red trains entering the "stage" of the station.

 #533003  by fl9m2026
 
Mirai Zikasu wrote:Well, red Metro cars would certainly look shocking given the conservative color scheme of the system. However, personally I don't think I would be getting a Satanic scare seeing one of those barreling into the station inasmuch as I would be getting a Red Scare. To think that back then the powers that were wanted to take out Reds in Vietnam, and Harry Weese wanted to put Reds in our Metro, instead...
John, I remember reading about Weese's justification for the red cars, but it WOULD be quite a thing when you think about it.... the height of the cold war, everyone seeing commies under the bed, and our nation's capitol running RED Metro cars! Kinda brings a smile to your face, the irony of it. To quote Dr. Phil: "What the hell we're you thinkin'??
 #563121  by tommyboy6181
 
Sure, Hyundai Rotem has done some projects in Korea, Hong Kong, Delhi, Athens to name a few. However, results have been mixed.
Latest word on the Hong Kong K-Trains that were built by Hyundai Rotem is that they are being taken out of service frequently due to door and propulsion problems. They have been deemed an unreliable train for their system which typically runs 8 car consists and until further notice will be run only when absolutely needed. Also from what I read, the door systems will most likely be entirely replaced since Rotem's idea for a new design failed.

Now that makes at least 2 major projects that have been botched. Any questions about Hyundai Rotem?

BTW, 1 correction...Hong Kong does not run Hitachi propulsion on their trains from Rotem unlike what I previously stated. They also use Mitsubishi which Rotem seems to specify on all projects.
 #563126  by realtype
 
tommyboy6181 wrote:
Sure, Hyundai Rotem has done some projects in Korea, Hong Kong, Delhi, Athens to name a few. However, results have been mixed.
Latest word on the Hong Kong K-Trains that were built by Hyundai Rotem is that they are being taken out of service frequently due to door and propulsion problems. They have been deemed an unreliable train for their system which typically runs 8 car consists and until further notice will be run only when absolutely needed. Also from what I read, the door systems will most likely be entirely replaced since Rotem's idea for a new design failed.

Now that makes at least 2 major projects that have been botched. Any questions about Hyundai Rotem?

BTW, 1 correction...Hong Kong does not run Hitachi propulsion on their trains from Rotem unlike what I previously stated. They also use Mitsubishi which Rotem seems to specify on all projects.
Hyundai Rotem is probably one of the worst carbuilders. Four commuter rail agenices (Metrolink, South Florida RTA, SEPTA, MBTA) in the U.S. have decided to purchase Rotem made equipment solely for financial reasons. In two of those procurements (SEPTA and MBTA) Kawsaski, which has a way better track record, actually bid a better product (according to the actual employees) but was shafted because it was more expensive. These commuter agencies will learn their lesson 10 years down the road when their cars need to be replaced or rehabbed.

Even Alstom, which has a terrible record with NJT, but has produced decent products for the WMATA, would be much better for the 7000-seres.

see: Rotem replacing Bombardier in US
 #563223  by tommyboy6181
 
Check this out. Here is some new information on the 7000 series program:
http://www.wmata.com/About/RAC/racdocs/ ... 202008.pdf

It looks like instead of the married pairs that are used now, Metro will be going to a 4 car consist by using 2 cab cars and 2 trailers. (A-B-B-A)

The bidders that will be solicited include:
Alstom (rehabs, 6k)
Bombardier (provided BBD Mitrac propulsion for the 5000 series)
Breda (did the 2k, 3k, 4k)
Kawasaki (would be new to Metro, known for good equipment in multiple cities)
CAF (we all know about the 5000 series issues)
Sumitomo/Nippon Sharyo (bid unsuccessfully on the 5000 series cars but has done rehab work for NYC and has experience building commuter and subway cars)
Kinki Sharyo (would be new to Metro but have done several LRT projects in the US)

and...

Hyundai Rotem (why?!?!?) :(

To the powers that be at Metro...why would you consider Rotem after all the problems they have had in other cities/countries?? Wouldn't you have learned after the problems with the CAF contract to not go with a builder that has no US subway experience??

However, at least there is finally going to be a 12,000 ft long dedicated test track and facility to eliminate the single tracking issues with testing new cars now and to work specifically on the commission of the new fleet. That is a step in the right direction.
 #563294  by Sand Box John
 
"tommyboy6181"
Check this out. Here is some new information on the 7000 series program:
http://www.wmata.com/About/RAC/racdocs/ ... 202008.pdf

It looks like instead of the married pairs that are used now, Metro will be going to a 4 car consist by using 2 cab cars and 2 trailers. (A-B-B-A)


WMATA has broken tradition again by going with a cab trailer configuration on this car procurement. They first broke with tradition by going with stainless steel. WMATA will however stay with married pairs the only difference will be the B car in the pair will be cabless. (See page 10 in the above linked PDF file) If compatibility is maintained these cars will still be able to be run in 6 car consists with a pair from other car series. (A-B+B-A+pair from another series) It is also likely that these cars will be run in 6 car consists. (A-B+B-A+B-A)

Though not stated in this document, other documents published by WMATA indicate the total procurement will be 500 cars.
 #563408  by polybalt
 
WMATA has broken tradition again by going with a cab trailer configuration on this car procurement
The term "trailer" means a non-powered car, which may or may not have a control cab. Please clarify if you mean a powered car with no control cab, called by some a "blind motor", or a true trailer.
 #563580  by Sand Box John
 
"polybalt"
The term "trailer" means a non-powered car, which may or may not have a control cab. Please clarify if you mean a powered car with no control cab, called by some a "blind motor", or a true trailer.


Based on the information in the document linked by tommyboy6181 above they are cabless motor cars.
 #563588  by SchuminWeb
 
tommyboy6181 wrote:Check this out. Here is some new information on the 7000 series program:
http://www.wmata.com/About/RAC/racdocs/ ... 202008.pdf
And one thing I noticed that I'm surprised others didn't - it seems that the "America's Metro" idea bit the dust, as there are regular "M" logos on both ends.
 #563621  by realtype
 
Sand Box John wrote: WMATA has broken tradition again by going with a cab trailer configuration on this car procurement. They first broke with tradition by going with stainless steel. WMATA will however stay with married pairs the only difference will be the B car in the pair will be cabless. (See page 10 in the above linked PDF file) If compatibility is maintained these cars will still be able to be run in 6 car consists with a pair from other car series. (A-B+B-A+pair from another series) It is also likely that these cars will be run in 6 car consists. (A-B+B-A+B-A)

Though not stated in this document, other documents published by WMATA indicate the total procurement will be 500 cars.
Honestly, it makes no sense to eliminate the cab from the B-car. What's wrong with the current setup that allows passengers to use half the cab when its not in use? The space where the cab would be would only provide additional space for two seats at most. That's only 8 additional seats for an 8-car train. Is it really worth the frustration in having to turn pairs to make sure the cab end is up front when putting consists together? It would especially be a major pain trying to put together a 6-car train from a 4- or 8- car set.
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
  • 103