All Things WMATA 7000 Series

LossOfCCU wrote:I wonder who builds this train? I hope its kawi.

Same here. If not, then Alstom; Bombardier wouldn't be a bad choice either. I doubt CAf will ever get a WMATA contract again due to the problems with the 5000s.

A little off topic but CAF has not won any contracts since their original 3 here in the US (Pittsburgh, Sacramento and Washington). Actually, they bid on a light rail rehab project in my hometown (Buffalo, NY) and their proposal was judged dead last on cash and technical merit. Even more interesting is they lost to Breda. The rehabs for us start running in the next few months.

Maybe CAF is on its way out in the US, who knows...

I do second the vote for either Kawasaki or even Breda again. I will even say Siemens since they produced some really nice blue line cars for Boston and other cities around the world.

"tommyboy6181"
A little off topic but CAF has not won any contracts since their original 3 here in the US (Pittsburgh, Sacramento and Washington). Actually, they bid on a light rail rehab project in my hometown (Buffalo, NY) and their proposal was judged dead last on cash and technical merit. Even more interesting is they lost to Breda. The rehabs for us start running in the next few months.

When CAF/AAI was doing final assembly on the WMATA cars in their Hunt Valley facility they were also doing work in the same building that looked like rehabilitation work on San Francisco MUNI cars and New Jersey Transit commuter.

I just found out about the proposal today and I have to agree with every single thing that Mirai Zikasu has said. It looks horrible, like they are trying to take everything out of the trains (not the stations) that makes the metro what it is. The two things that really stick out for me are the new name "Americas Metro" this is about as good a name (and as sickening) as "freedom fries". For crying out loud its DCs metro not Americas! The interior is as sickening as the name. It looks so busy, and does not promote the sense of elligance and calm that the current and past designs have given. I now live in the UK (but spend time back in DC every year) and the buses here have similar designs on their seats. People always refer to them as "looking like they gave a monkey some crayons and let it go wild". Although not quite as bad, losing the brown on the side is going to make the cars look a lot more like a generic subway system. I really hope this whole idea is protested by the citizens of DC!

"Matt_S"
I just found out about the proposal today and I have to agree with every single thing that Mirai Zikasu has said. It looks horrible, like they are trying to take everything out of the trains (not the stations) that makes the metro what it is. The two things that really stick out for me are the new name "Americas Metro" this is about as good a name (and as sickening) as "freedom fries". For crying out loud its DCs metro not Americas! The interior is as sickening as the name. It looks so busy, and does not promote the sense of elligance and calm that the current and past designs have given. I now live in the UK (but spend time back in DC every year) and the buses here have similar designs on their seats. People always refer to them as "looking like they gave a monkey some crayons and let it go wild". Although not quite as bad, losing the brown on the side is going to make the cars look a lot more like a generic subway system. I really hope this whole idea is protested by the citizens of DC!

I can live with the "Americas Metro" appearing on the sides of cars. WMATA has been using "America's Subway" brand for some years now.

I never looked at present interior color schema in quite that way. After reading your description on the new color schema I can't say I disagree with. The Maryland Transit Administration (MTA) uses a similar schema on their buses. The most glaring difference between the MTA busses and the new metrorail car schema is the grab bars on the busses are painted yellow.

You might think about writing up your thoughts in a less colorful way and send them to WMATA. The fact that you are writing from the UK might add some weight to your thoughts.

I believe the reason why the brown will not be applied to exteriors is to reduce the maintenance costs and because the 7000 series cars will have stainless exteriors skins.

Matt_S wrote:It looks horrible, like they are trying to take everything out of the trains (not the stations) that makes the metro what it is. The two things that really stick out for me are the new name "Americas Metro" this is about as good a name (and as sickening) as "freedom fries". For crying out loud its DCs metro not Americas! The interior is as sickening as the name. It looks so busy, and does not promote the sense of elligance and calm that the current and past designs have given...I really hope this whole idea is protested by the citizens of DC!

Ditto. For the record though, the majority of people who take Metro(rail) don't live in DC.

Americas metro is fine on paper but when applied to the side of a train it makes it look more like the official logo, which is obviously the M with metro underneath. The style of text also is not keeping in uniform with the metro brand, the red for instance is really the opposite to the muted colours that make the brand.

It looks like the new manager has his mind set on creating his own brand rather then updating the original, which is unique and a hit with everyone who experiences it.

Sand Box John wrote:I believe the reason why the brown will not be applied to exteriors is to reduce the maintenance costs and because the 7000 series cars will have stainless exteriors skins.

Are the maintenance costs that high for a two big, monochromatic stripes per car? Considering how there are a number of railroads out there that run stainless steel cars with stripes (Amtrak's Amfleets come to mind, some of which have almost decade-old Northeast Direct markings), I wonder just how much is saved by eliminating a monochromatic car-length stripe. If the reason for the proposal to design the 7000 series cars without stripes is to save costs, yet Metro plans on the fancy new maps, CCTV, and a new interior requiring a whole new set of interior decor parts, it seems extremely penny wise and pound foolish.

Matt_S wrote:It looks like the new manager has his mind set on creating his own brand rather then updating the original, which is unique and a hit with everyone who experiences it.

Unfortunately, I would say that we as railfans, foamers, or whatnot probably value design aesthetics more than many average riders. However, I would personally agree regarding the appeal of the simple and timeless design of the trains as well as the pleasant aesthetic of uniform appearance around the system. The proposed redesign (especially with the gaudy interior and austere exterior with only the cheesy "America's Metro" label reminds me a little of how George Warrington attempted his "Acelafication" of Amtrak's Northeast Corridor back around 2000. With the inception of the Acela Express, suddenly everyone on the NEC ended up with the Acela Express, Acela Regionals, Acela Commuter, Acela-labeled HHP-8s and Acela blobs on Amfleet sides, CafeAcela, ClubAcela, that freaky abstract Acela advertising campaign, and everything short of AcelaToilet. This all happened while the NEC was falling apart as were both the Acela Expresses and HHP-8s that nearly waddled themselves off the rails after only three years in service. Then, Warrington hightailed it over to NJ Transit, David Gunn came in, and everything was gone as quickly as it had first appeared in the system. Good riddance.
Fortunately, Metro hasn't gone anywhere near that path of hiding a disaster waiting to happen under such heavy glitz and glamor and even seems to be on an upswing of improved reliability and maintenance awareness, though I still hope that the improvement lasts and they don't waste still greatly needed maintenance money on such an extravagant, frilly, and downright ugly design.

"Mirai Zikasu"
Are the maintenance costs that high for a two big, monochromatic stripes per car? Considering how there are a number of railroads out there that run stainless steel cars with stripes (Amtrak's Amfleets come to mind, some of which have almost decade-old Northeast Direct markings), I wonder just how much is saved by eliminating a monochromatic car-length stripe. If the reason for the proposal to design the 7000 series cars without stripes is to save costs, yet Metro plans on the fancy new maps, CCTV, and a new interior requiring a whole new set of interior decor parts, it seems extremely penny wise and pound foolish.

The brown strip has been replaced at least 3 times on the 1k car sense they were new. I am not sure but I would hazard a guess all of the bredas that have been rehabilitated also had the strips redone. WMATA does not have a purpose built facility for doing paint work on any of their rolling stock.

I will note that I was surprises that the strip was deleted from the new design.

As to the video displays, these were likely added to go beyond the required compliance of the Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990.

Does anybody have a drawing of that the 7000s will look? I couldn't find the previous sketch that was mentioned here.

And another builder outthere is Hyundai Rotem, they are building 75 commuter cars for Boston, I wonder if WMATA have considered Hyundai Rotem for these new 7Ks

Here is DCist's copy of the release. They're still ugly and sterile-looking.

Also, while Rotem is a new option for a potential builder, it would be wise for WMATA to wait and see the quality of what they build elsewhere. Though they might be building commuter cars for MBTA (and SEPTA, too?), as far as I have heard, they have yet to actually put out anything on American rails, yet.

Oh yeah, I see, they'll look like MARC's new Bilevel interior mostly

And they'll have grabbars too.

Robert Paniagua wrote:Does anybody have a drawing of that the 7000s will look? I couldn't find the previous sketch that was mentioned here.

And another builder outthere is Hyundai Rotem, they are building 75 commuter cars for Boston, I wonder if WMATA have considered Hyundai Rotem for these new 7Ks

configuration of 7K cars:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... =emaillink

Rotem should DEFINITELY NOT build the 7000 series cars. I think that's its ridiculous that the MBTA, Metrolink, SEPTA, and the South Florida RTA, blindly contracted with Rotem just because they are cheaper. Rotem has absolutely no experience in the US, and more than likely produces poor quality products.

When SEPTA issued a bid for their new Silverliners Kawasaki won the contract by fulfilling the prerequisites of quality and experience, both areas where Rotem failed, but SEPTA decided to go with Rotem anyways because they were cheaper. Result: Kawasaki sued and won, but SEPTA redid the bid so only Rotem could possibly win, and of course they did.

For more reasons why Rotem shouldn't be the 7K manufacturer see:
General Discussion: Commuter and Transit -> "Rotem replacing Bombardier in US"

I strongly think that the 7K manufacturer should be either Kawasaki or Alstom. If not, then Bombardier.

Hyundai Rotem would definitely be a mistake...and worse than the CAF situation. They are already behind on the Silverliner V schedule and the trains were so bad in Taiwan that they were actually banned by the country from building ANYTHING for them again. Yes, thats right...they can NEVER bid on a contract in Taiwan again.

Sure, Hyundai Rotem has done some projects in Korea, Hong Kong, Delhi, Athens to name a few. However, results have been mixed.

For anyone wondering about propulsion with trains built by Rotem, they mostly use either Mitsubishi (Delhi, Athens) or Hitachi (Hong Kong K-trains). Videos are on YouTube with those systems. Picture something even louder and even higher pitched than the Rohr trains and thats what you get from either of those packages.

A perfect example of Mitsubishi propulsion...the LIRR M7's.

Again, I'd rather see a product that is actually reliable.

For sure, go with Kawasaki or Alstom like previous posters have said, or consider Breda, Bombardier or Siemens. At least we know the track record with those companies and at least they can turn out a reliable product.

Sand Box John wrote:
The brown strip has been replaced at least 3 times on the 1k car sense they were new. I am not sure but I would hazard a guess all of the bredas that have been rehabilitated also had the strips redone. WMATA does not have a purpose built facility for doing paint work on any of their rolling stock.

Unless the literature and data I previously read on the WMATA cars was incorrect, the brown stripes and red/white/blue end stripes, at least on the Rohr cars, were not paint, but were made of decal material. This was allegedly done to save money and have a more "durable" medium for the color added to the cars. Why would WMATA need a purpose-built paint facility if this was the case, especially with stainless steel or brushed aluminum car bodies? Were the subsequent deliveries (Breda, CAFS, etc.) painted and not decaled? Was my original info incorrect, or did WMATA decide to paint the brown stripes once the decals deteriorated instead of going the route of applying new decals?