Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

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Greg Moore
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Greg Moore » Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:21 pm

The biggest issue I've seen with "riding backwards" are the rare times in like Amfleets where you've got 2 coach seats facing each other and there's no legroom.
I prefer to ride forward, but honestly, with a big enough window, I don't care.

And, larger windows help those in the aisle seats also, so that helps mitigate a big part of that issue.
A bigger issue for me, which is solved here, is power access. Now aisle seat folks won't have to drape a power cord over me.
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mtuandrew
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by mtuandrew » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:16 pm

Acela150 wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 1:42 pm
bostontrainguy wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:50 am
A cafe car with no seating, seats permanently facing backwards, poorly placed seats with the view blocked by a wall . . . This is an improvement?
The seats in the cafe are rarely used.

It should also be noted that the view blocked by a wall is a mock up. It's NOT the final design of what the car will look like. The mock up's are not a full car. It just shows the public what the cars will look like as far as seating etc.
Are the seats rarely used because customers would rather stay at their seats, or because the cafe seats in Acela are designed to encourage people to leave?

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe » Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:56 am

Acela150 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:10 pm
This contract seems to be moving along much better then the first contract, as their were so many moving parts to the last contract.
Very much agreed on this point. Last report I read through indicated that Alstom was fighting to hold the line on a 90 day projected delay for initial delivery (?) that apparently was a big deal to them. Nice to see a vendor trying so hard.
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BandA
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by BandA » Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:00 am

Why is it a big deal to have flippable seats? Surely the mechanism isn't that expensive. Is it labor intensive? Yes, but each pair of seats probably requires 15 seconds...

David Benton
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by David Benton » Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:22 am

gokeefe wrote:
Sat Aug 31, 2019 8:56 am
Acela150 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:10 pm
This contract seems to be moving along much better then the first contract, as their were so many moving parts to the last contract.
Very much agreed on this point. Last report I read through indicated that Alstom was fighting to hold the line on a 90 day projected delay for initial delivery (?) that apparently was a big deal to them. Nice to see a vendor trying so hard.
I would say they have their eye on the Amfleet replacement contract. I know most people think its a slam dunk for siemens , but if alstom can do well on this , it might even up the score.
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by mtuandrew » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:22 am

Alstom also has existing designs for Superliner replacements. Amtrak has dedicated itself to single-level regional cars, but the LD fleet is still up for grabs.

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by gokeefe » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:22 am

David Benton wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 5:22 am
I would say they have their eye on the Amfleet replacement contract. I know most people think its a slam dunk for siemens , but if alstom can do well on this , it might even up the score.
Good point and Amtrak would probably be very pleased to have two really good options for such a large contract.

Returning to the new trainsets ... The interior mockups thus far look great.
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by electricron » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:36 pm

BandA wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:00 am
Why is it a big deal to have flippable seats? Surely the mechanism isn't that expensive. Is it labor intensive? Yes, but each pair of seats probably requires 15 seconds...
Have you totaled the man hours required to flip a train at 15 seconds per pair?
Here is the math.....
With a 70-72 seat Amfleet I, that is up to 36 pairs of seats per car, or 9 minutes per car to flip. A 6 car train would require 54 minutes to flip, a 7 car train 63 minutes, let’s say one man hour to flip to keep it simple. With a train at least every half hour each and every day over 12 hours in both directions, that is about 48 trains a day, 48 man hours a day just flipping seats. That was just for the NEC, anther 48 man hours could be required nationally when you consider Midwest, California, and Cascades trains.

When you look at expenses with just an individual train, it does not look that expensive, but these expenses start to add up when you look at it with a national fleet wide point of view.

bostontrainguy
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by bostontrainguy » Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:45 pm

electricron wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 4:36 pm
BandA wrote:
Sun Sep 01, 2019 2:00 am
Why is it a big deal to have flippable seats? Surely the mechanism isn't that expensive. Is it labor intensive? Yes, but each pair of seats probably requires 15 seconds...
Have you totaled the man hours required to flip a train at 15 seconds per pair?
Here is the math.....
With a 70-72 seat Amfleet I, that is up to 36 pairs of seats per car, or 9 minutes per car to flip. A 6 car train would require 54 minutes to flip, a 7 car train 63 minutes, let’s say one man hour to flip to keep it simple. With a train at least every half hour each and every day over 12 hours in both directions, that is about 48 trains a day, 48 man hours a day just flipping seats. That was just for the NEC, anther 48 man hours could be required nationally when you consider Midwest, California, and Cascades trains.

When you look at expenses with just an individual train, it does not look that expensive, but these expenses start to add up when you look at it with a national fleet wide point of view.
You are talking as if this is a new concept that has never been done before! How on earth has passenger railroading survived this long with rotating seats?

mdvle
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by mdvle » Sun Sep 01, 2019 6:31 pm

No, he was explaining the time (and hence money) required to deal with rotating seats - and didn't include the additional maintenance costs or the cost of having the train out of service.

With fixed seats not only does Amtrak not have to pay people to rotate the seats but it also means the train can be returned to service at the end of the line much quicker, thus either allowing better fleet utilization or quicker response to delays.

Rotating seats are a holdover from a different era with different economics.

MattW
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by MattW » Sun Sep 01, 2019 7:28 pm

Or they could have just done electrically rotating seats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSsMO9dzrnI

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Rockingham Racer
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by Rockingham Racer » Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:07 am

Interesting vid. Leave it to the Japanese. And one poster from Japan lamented that they have to turn the seats themselves in Northern Japan. Are Americans less able to that than the Japanese?

bostontrainguy
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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by bostontrainguy » Mon Sep 02, 2019 10:53 am

Rockingham Racer wrote:
Mon Sep 02, 2019 9:07 am
Interesting vid. Leave it to the Japanese. And one poster from Japan lamented that they have to turn the seats themselves in Northern Japan. Are Americans less able to that than the Japanese?
Apparently. Never thought the use of rotating seats was such a negative thing! I guess I am totally wrong to question it's demise.

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by mtuandrew » Mon Sep 02, 2019 1:15 pm

There is a whole lot of loathing toward rear-facing seats being expressed here! There used to be a way to do a poll on phpBB; would be nice to get an accurate number of people for whom rearward travel is a deal-breaker.

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Re: Acela II (Avelia Liberty): Design, Production, Delivery, Acceptance

Post by bostontrainguy » Mon Sep 02, 2019 4:17 pm

Greg Moore wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 2:21 pm
The biggest issue I've seen with "riding backwards" are the rare times in like Amfleets where you've got 2 coach seats facing each other and there's no legroom.
You need to add that when seats are back to back you can't recline either.

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