The 470 Railroad Club (Equipment and Activities)

[Jeff Smith]

I'm a 470 club member, and pleased with the realistic restoration to service of 4268, on a railroad that will lease it and use it. It's up to 470 who own the engines and rolling stock, to do with them as needed to take care of them. Steamer, your obsession with 501 is amazing, as every other post seems to be from you, battling against any positive comment for the 470 club. Same as 2 years ago when you were doing the same against CSRR. 519 sits at Steamtown and may be available, go buy it and enjoy it. It is only members business how 470 spends money. If a member you have the same opportunity I have to make comments to the officers. If you are not a member then you need to become one.
I have really gotten disgusted with the constant hijacking of the thread to the 501, all the time. When you own your own railroad I promise not to tell you what to do with your equipment.
I'm logging off and probably won't return to this thread.

Neils is 90 years old and still editing the newsletter. I think he should be applauded for continueing to do it.

Thank you for your response. While it is certainly up to the trustees of 470 to make business decisions, I might argue that if a gift is restricted, for a certain purpose, you have to use it for that. And I would guess it's up to the members to elect those trustees. I agree it is up to those members how to spend those funds provided they comply with the proper laws governing gifts, as I've noticed.

Disclosure: I am not a lawyer, don't play one on TV, and have not stayed at a Holiday Inn Express in recent memory. These are just my surmises.

Is 470 a not for profit soliciting donations? If those donations are "restricted" have they been used for that purpose? I am not a stakeholder in these discussions, as I'm not a member and have not donated, whether restricted or not, so you don't have to answer to me by any stretch.

I disagreed with a lot of Steamers comments on CSRX. They are a for-profit entity, and can make whatever business decisions they want, notwithstanding Steamers arguments about safety, which are a matter of public record. However, a not-for-profit has many more public obligations for reporting, particularly if they solicit donations. If it's just a club or association, and they only solicit from members, that's one thing. If they solicit from the public, it's another. E.g. I can investigate the United Way, but the local homeowner's association? Not so much.

If you want to rebut Steamer, please do so. Again, I have no horse in this race. But as an organization which has accepted donations for specific purposes, if you want to put the matter to rest, I suggest you respond, and that will put it all to rest.

[Jeff Smith]

thee are fair questions.
But they are for the 470 Club to answer... TO THE MBRRE.
Since MBRRE is the proprietary agent of the Webb Award, the money is theirs and 470 is most definitely accountable to THEM for it.
They are also accountable to their own members.
Did Matt's notes say what the REAL reason was for the work stopping?
(HINT: It has to do a LOT more with your buddy's "work" and his attitude toward other dedicated individuals that had, up to that point, put in a lot of work on that engine... more than your buddy, and who had every intention of restoring that engine to service.)

Partial quote from Cosmo's response to Steamer's request.

I think Cosmo nailed what I've been trying to get at. If funds were misused against the properly-stated intentions of the donor, the donor is the one who has legal standing. If you gave funds for them to use as they wish, and they pulled a bad charity act, or got snookered, oh well, caveat emptor.

[Cosmo]

thee are fair questions.
But they are for the 470 Club to answer... TO THE MBRRE.
Since MBRRE is the proprietary agent of the Webb Award, the money is theirs and 470 is most definitely accountable to THEM for it.
They are also accountable to their own members.
Did Matt's notes say what the REAL reason was for the work stopping?
(HINT: It has to do a LOT more with your buddy's "work" and his attitude toward other dedicated individuals that had, up to that point, put in a lot of work on that engine... more than your buddy, and who had every intention of restoring that engine to service.)

Partial quote from Cosmo's response to Steamer's request.

I think Cosmo nailed what I've been trying to get at. If funds were misused against the properly-stated intentions of the donor, the donor is the one who has legal standing. If you gave funds for them to use as they wish, and they pulled a bad charity act, or got snookered, oh well, caveat emptor.

Bingo.

[steamer69]

I see you heavily edited this posting from it's original form

I did not edit anything. Where do you see that I edited? That post that you quoted has been up since yesterday....and it would say at the bottom if I had edited it....


Pete my friend....stop making this about other people and diverting the issue. This is NOT about someone that you are calling "MY Buddie". Is it his fault too that they got a grant to certify the boiler and the boiler is not certified? The 501 is just the tip of the iceburg, but you and others want to make it the whole shebang. What about 4266? It is limping along. Can't be run over notch 6, the prime mover needs rebuilt, wireing is fried, it needs body work. And by the way....it's a whole historical B&M F-7.....not jst a rotted shell. Why can't she be fixed? She's running being leased to the CSRX and the 470 GETS PAID when CSRX uses it. But instead you're going to start another 20 year restoration? Please. Who's going to do the work? Voluntters? What volunteers and in what shop? With what heavy lifting equipment and what machine shop and what money and what supplies? You haven't named names, you have not put up anything to back your assertions, and as I said since you couldn't answer the question in any way shape or form, you again have to try and make it about me. All I'm doing is asking a question. I offered to make a donation to the engine project, retract everything I have said, and make amends. All I asked for was 1 little answer. I couldn't even get that. Question is still alive and valid, but the offer of monetary help will be withdrawn very shortly. Since you seem to know the REAL reason why worked stoped, mabe you can actually put up some facts, and put the thing to rest. Or am I the only one who needs to be putting up facts. Pleading the 5th does not prove inocence....it means if you answer, you may incriminate yourself. You plead the fifth so you don't admit to wrong doing or have knowledge of wrongdoing.

I will admit that they are lacking skill, but that does not excuse for a locomotive restoration taking almost 20 years.

Bingo! Wait....I bet that's "my buddies" fault too. And if there was a like button, I would have hit it for the entire post you put up.



Caveat emptor is Latin for "Let the buyer beware."

Bingo.

So that makes it ok? Yet again it's someone elses problem?

[Stag Hound]

Steamer,

I applaud your (sometimes misguided) passion for the 501. You clearly want what's best for the locomotive and wish to see one project completed prior to another being started. Again, a pretty simple (yet often overlooked/ignored) principle for any organization, especially a non-profit. However, you ever think that perhaps other regional museums might be interested in purchasing the 501 for their collection (static with the potential of becoming operational) but did not wish to be constantly scrutinized (publically) for their decisions? In other words, it might have the potential to at the very least recieve an Imron paint job and at best steam again. Your constant beratement has almost single-handedly made the piece into a "social pariah" within the industry. Honestly, as much as I encourage and support railroad preservation, at this point you might just as well scrap the thing and be done with it. There is another at Steamtown that comes with far less strings attached.

[Jeff Smith]

Okay, at this point, I think we need to take a break and wait for 470 to respond. The questions have been posed.

If someone actually has some skin in the game their next step would be a civil action if they felt their money was not used as intended. And that's provided the statute hasn't expired. Or you can join the club and go to a meeting and make motions, etc. Change it from the inside.

I'd also note Stag Hounds point about being constantly scrutinized. I've been under that microscope as site administrator. It's not fun.

[steamer69]

There is another at Steamtown that comes with far less strings attached.

Thanks Stag. I'm glad that you agree with a few of my points. In terms of 519, my experiance with steamtown has been one that would never allow an engine off the property. A friend of mine once inquired about a lease of a locomotive for an excursion program that was all ready in existance with a very reputable crew....and the response from Mr. Hagen was "not in my lifetime". Unfortunately there seems to be a "hands off" approach to letting engines go. Now, you may be able to get your hands on 519 if you knew a congressman, and had the ability to do a one for one swap....

Your constant beratement has almost single-handedly made the piece into a "social pariah" within the industry.

It was a "social pariah" long before I came around. I can't take all the credit for that......

[Stag Hound]

Given past experience I feel there is a very good chance, using the correct and appropriate channels, Steamtown would give up the 519, if the "price was right." The "price" might not be a necessarily money but a trade, etc. On the other hand, money walks...

[markhb]

I'm wondering about that excursion I posted the photo of a couple of pages ago (Portland-Island Pond via GT). Does anyone know when the last time was that they ran that excursion, assuming it was done more than the one time in 1976? Aside from the sheer volume of passenger rolling stock in that consist, and having to depart from Presumpscot Street rather than India, would it be reasonable to contemplate an excursion on that route today, or have the tracks deteriorated to the point that it would be an unreasonably long trip?

[merrman]

The SLR has installed CWR along most of it's route between Lewiston Jct and Island Pond. I don't know what kind of shape
the roadbed or ties are in, but they did have some freight speeds in places at 30-40 mph. This was about 4 years ago that I
last saw one at that speed. Not sure what the speed summary looks like now, but the track should support a passenger train
at 40-50 mph in many places. Portland to LJ could be another matter all together. Freights are restricted to 10 mph in
most places, by the looks.

[Mikejf]

We all agree that we must get a complete response from the 470. I, myself, would be interested in to what they have to say. They are doing a good job having the frieght cars repainted, though "Frankinengine" and 501 are different matters. I will admit that they are lacking skill, but that does not excuse for a locomotive restoration taking almost 20 years. I would like it if they replace the officers in the club to people who can responsively use the money they earn on high priority projects, and also see them through. Thats what i have to say..

This is what I have to say. Just who do you say lacks experience? There had been plenty of experience working on the locomotive. There is discrepencies as to what brought the work stoppage, but one common answer is the passing of the project leader. Wheather there was other things involved is only speculation, especially on here, because the ones with the answers are not talking.

Another thing about restorations is money. And lots of it. And before anyone says the 470 has lots of money, I doubt they have enough to do a thorough rebuild.

I saw the locomotive shortly after arrival. I will say it does look better now.

It takes a lot of work and planning to keep any form of collection in shape. If you are offering up any one of those, great. Join the club and get busy. Otherwise, like me, you have no say as to what they do. I praise them for what they have done, because I know there are plenty that are b*t*h*ng about what they haven't.

Mike

[Cosmo]

This is what I have to say. Just who do you say lacks experience? There had been plenty of experience working on the locomotive. There is discrepencies as to what brought the work stoppage, but one common answer is the passing of the project leader. Wheather there was other things involved is only speculation, especially on here, because the ones with the answers are not talking.

Another thing about restorations is money. And lots of it. And before anyone says the 470 has lots of money, I doubt they have enough to do a thorough rebuild.

I saw the locomotive shortly after arrival. I will say it does look better now.

It takes a lot of work and planning to keep any form of collection in shape. If you are offering up any one of those, great. Join the club and get busy. Otherwise, like me, you have no say as to what they do. I praise them for what they have done, because I know there are plenty that are b*t*h*ng about what they haven't.

Mike

Hear, hear.

[Otto Vondrak]

To All Members of RAILROAD.NET Who Still Have a Sense of Humor:

You know what everyone needs right about now? I'm gonna start handing out some lollipops and rainbows...



-otto-

[steamer69]

Now that's funny.....Nice Otto.....

But as an organization which has accepted donations for specific purposes, if you want to put the matter to rest, I suggest you respond, and that will put it all to rest.

6 days, 6 hours and 45 minutes....and still waiting....

[Cosmo]

To All Members of RAILROAD.NET Who Still Have a Sense of Humor:

You know what everyone needs right about now? I'm gonna start handing out some lollipops and rainbows...



-otto-

Oh God,... not THAT!?!?!?