Upper Harlem - Wassaic Extension - Questions, Info

According to this post, due noise restrictions, the late-night trains can't serve Wassaic. How can this train do that?

Amtrak7 wrote:According to this post, due noise restrictions, the late-night trains can't serve Wassaic. How can this train do that?

I'd imagine that the aldermen (or whatever the proper term is) of the Hamlet of Wassaic figured they'd put up with the train noise for one night to help cut down on NYE drunk driving.

pnaw10 wrote:Expansion further north is not too likely -- the track bed north of Wassaic has been taken over by the Harlem Valley Rail Trail. As has been said on this board many times in the past... once the tracks are removed, it's tough (and expensive) to put them back. When the track bed has been replaced by a trail, you can all but forget about it. As you can see on the HVRTA website, MTA no longer owns the trackbed. Even though the bed is now owned by other parts of the state government, it's highly unlikely those agencies would simply give the land back to MTA unless there's a desperate, compelling need to extend the line. (Even then, it might be tough... but I don't see that even being a concern in the foreseeable future.)

Well, there might be some real issues in getting a rail “trail” converted back into a functioning railway; that is most certainly a fact. However, those issues, no matter how difficult to surmount, would STILL be a whole lot easier to address than trying to re-establish service over an abandoned right-of-way that has been encroached upon by development. Once you get some houses or supermarkets planted on top of where the rail line once ran, there is no hope.

I was an active member in the rail trail movement for a few years and sent them some contributions. One of their bylines was to “preserve” corridors in case “the economies of trains change” necessitating a come-back in the future. That was a good selling point to me so I made some contributions.

However, I understand that there has been some major opposition from trail proponents when it actually comes down to re-establishing rail service. It seems to me that there was an issue out in the State of Washington where they were attempting to do just that and the trail proponents were screaming bloody murder over it.

In any case, there is a lesson to be learned in all this that I hope we’re learning albeit slowly but surely. When a rail line is no longer needed, it is almost always a bad idea to dismantle and obliterate it – a very bad idea. It’s almost impossible to look out 20 or 30 years in advance – never mind 50 or more years – and know what kind of transportation needs an area is going to have. As it turns out, many of these lines may need to be put back. Personally, I suspect the Wassaic – Chatham line is one such case in point. However, for this to ever happen, it will be absolutely and completely necessary for the communities along the line to support this.

Think about his for a minute. We “Baby Boomers” are aging fast. In a few more years many of us may need to give up driving. When we reach that point, many of us are going to wonder where the heck our public transportation is. It would be really swell to have some of our passenger trains back.

Fred M. Cain,
Aging “Boomer” and ex-New Yorker in Topeka, Indiana

Site Admin Edit for correct quoting; please be careful when using quotes to quote the correct person. No harm no foul

I don't know what the situation is today in Patterson, but circa 1991 or so when they were still running SPV shuttles and transitioning to mini-bombs and maxi-bomb thru trains, there was ample parking in Patterson directly adjacent to the ROW.

Otto Vondrak wrote:Essentially, yes. The town thought they owned the right of way. There were still issues with the Penn Central estate and who owned the right of way. Others were pushing for a trail. The crunchy granola types wanted to keep Millerton a cow town ("Welcome to Dutchess County. Please set your clocks 20 years back.") and created such a false-uproar that Metro-North went into retreat.

It is my understanding that many in the former harlem and new haven railroad territories "remember the trains" but don't really put 2 and 2 together that before the interstate, many of those towns were hugely dependent on railroads for pretty much everything. There is similar mentality here in hudson county, but thankfully we are choosing to revive and re-invent vs pretend it never happened and those folks that pretend this was never a place where railroad and traction was a way of life are in the minority.

Your extension north through what is now a trail reminds me of how we'd like our bridge across the bay and an easy transfer at elizabeth back. They compromised and gave us the light rail, maybe there can be a compromise in your situation?

Otto Vondrak wrote: Rails to Trails people who have campaigned successfully to remove so much infrastructure...

Who then complain about traffic.

Jeff Smith wrote:I don't know what the situation is today in Patterson, but circa 1991 or so when they were still running SPV shuttles and transitioning to mini-bombs and maxi-bomb thru trains, there was ample parking in Patterson directly adjacent to the ROW.

20 years later, the service has doubled, and the parking situation has been expanded as much as possible. Patterson's done all they can do. Pawling, too.

HBLR wrote:

Otto Vondrak wrote: Rails to Trails people who have campaigned successfully to remove so much infrastructure...

Who then complain about traffic.

Don't be fooled by the Rails to Trails agenda. They are out to remove railroads not because they thing trails are wonderful recreational opportunities but because they feel railroads lower their property values.

You know of any Trails to Rails programs out there?

-otto-

Otto Vondrak wrote:You know of any Trails to Rails programs out there?

-otto-

<EVIL LAUGH> Now there's an idea. I'm thinking about setting up my PayPal donation site right now......

Otto Vondrak wrote:

McGinty26 wrote:Rail trails aren't dumb...

And I dont mean the idea of all trails are dumb, just part of my pent-up feelings against these Rails to Trails people who have campaigned successfully to remove so much infrastructure...

-otto-

I would like to say this about the “Rails to Trails” movement. I truly and honestly believe that many of the Rails to Trails people genuinely meant well – at least at the beginning.

When they went on record as advocating “interim” use of an abandoned roadbed as a trail if and until rail service returns, then that’s probably what they really meant.

However, some of these people probably never really believed that rail service would ever actually return. Then the great railroad revival began and suddenly things looked differently. However, when it comes to returning a trail back into a functioning railroad, much of the opposition might not actually be coming from the “Rails to Trails” organization but rather from local residents who have become fond of the trail. (Or, similarly, residents who can live with a trail in their back yard but not real, live trains). In any event, I am going to try and contact the “Rails to Trails” organization again to see where they stand on this issue of “interim” trail use and rail service revival.

The issue in the state of Washington, if I can remember right, involved an abandoned BN branch line (with abandoned track still in place) that the new commuter district wanted to convert into a new commuter rail line. I don’t know exactly where that project stands now.

There was also another case in New Jersey where there was a trail placed adjacent and nearly on top of an abandoned track structure that a short line operator would like to return to service. This case was discussed in “TRAINS” Magazine last year, I think.

On the Wassaic extension to Chatham, it would all depend completely upon how many and how badly residents living in the communities along the line want their rail service restored. Those people would have to override the NIMBY’s who do not want service brought back – plain and simple.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

Otto Vondrak wrote: You know of any Trails to Rails programs out there?

-otto-

Bergen arches is one big one i know that. That and the 6th street viaduct. I feel both structures are industrial infrastructure and should stay as such. Oh yea, can't forget the old CNJ line through elizabeth, people want so many things for that.

I personally as a resident of bayonne originally wanted a new bridge, with some kind of system connecting jersey city and bayonne back across the bay without having to go all the way up to PATH territory. You could even have had hourly service and i would have been happy with that. Now you have these big ships coming from the newly expanded panama canal, and a bridge seems entirely impractical. There was, for a time, the threat of having our beloved bayonne bridge taken away, replaced with some modern techno-sculpture type thing or one that opened for ships. Now the PA says they are going to just jack everything up and modify the ramps on either side. Sure beats having no bridge for a year or 2.

I think the west side ave stretch has the best chance of getting a bridge. It would alleviate crowding on PATH, and give us lower hudson county folks a bit of a time and running to make the connection 75 feet underground from street level savings. no big huge ships to avoid either.

I guess time will tell.

fredmcain wrote:

Otto Vondrak wrote:

McGinty26 wrote:Rail trails aren't dumb...

And I dont mean the idea of all trails are dumb, just part of my pent-up feelings against these Rails to Trails people who have campaigned successfully to remove so much infrastructure...

-otto-

I would like to say this about the “Rails to Trails” movement. I truly and honestly believe that many of the Rails to Trails people genuinely meant well – at least at the beginning.

And there are genuinely some rail trails out there that have preserved something that otherwise would have been gone completely. My hometown Ridgefield Branch is a good example. While I would love to be able to walk the three blocks from my family's house to the station on the corner of Prospect St. and Bailey Ave. to catch the train to New York, I accept that its never going to happen. A four-odd mile long line that lost passenger service ca. 1923 and freight ca. 1962 (and moreover boasted the steepest grades in all of Southern New England) simply is not viable. If it weren't for CL&P that ROW would have gone the way of the Hawleyville Branch, the Litchfield Branch, the Central New England, and other abandoned lines in western Connecticut: reversion to property owners, and partial/total obliteration. Thanks to the rail trail people, you can now stroll along it and at least imagine what it was like when the shuttle service connected Ridgefield to Branchville. Same goes for the Larkin State Park Trail up in Southbury/Oxford, on the ROW of the old NY&NE main line.

Like any other group of people, there are some good rail-trail folks, some bad and some ugly... I agree with you, Otto, that removing infrastructure to *make* a trail is flat-out idiotic (don't get me started about the High Line) but if the choice is rail trail or complete obliteration, I'll take the trail.

No rails for trails has been returned to rail yet, and I believe MTA should really take a very cautsious look at the intentions of rails for trails.
to me Rails for trails is translated as a snake in the grass.

Ridgefielder wrote: And there are genuinely some rail trails out there that have preserved something that otherwise would have been gone completely. My hometown Ridgefield Branch is a good example. While I would love to be able to walk the three blocks from my family's house to the station on the corner of Prospect St. and Bailey Ave. to catch the train to New York, I accept that its never going to happen. A four-odd mile long line that lost passenger service ca. 1923 and freight ca. 1962 (and moreover boasted the steepest grades in all of Southern New England) simply is not viable.

At the risk of wandering off topic here, I can expose my age and relate that I can remember seeing the old Ridgefield Branch cross U.S. Route 7 near Georgetown/Branchville.

I remember seeing a set of crossbucks there that said on their blades "RAILROAD CROSSING" "STOP LOOK AND LISTEN" and the post said "New York, New Haven & Hartford". The rails looked to me like they hadn't been used in a long time and on the west side of U.S. 7 they disappeared into a thick mat of weeds and underbrush.

If the right of way on this line is still there, I don't thing wishing for a rail revival is unreasonable. While the grade might be steep, it was never operated with electric traction. If the line were restored and electrified (along with the accompanying Danbury Branch), then it might offer a valuable service to the residents in the area.

Why don't you ask some of your neighbors what they might think about the idea? Does Ridgefield have a chamber of commerce? If so, you might ask them, too.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

fredmcain wrote:

Ridgefielder wrote: And there are genuinely some rail trails out there that have preserved something that otherwise would have been gone completely. My hometown Ridgefield Branch is a good example. While I would love to be able to walk the three blocks from my family's house to the station on the corner of Prospect St. and Bailey Ave. to catch the train to New York, I accept that its never going to happen. A four-odd mile long line that lost passenger service ca. 1923 and freight ca. 1962 (and moreover boasted the steepest grades in all of Southern New England) simply is not viable.

At the risk of wandering off topic here, I can expose my age and relate that I can remember seeing the old Ridgefield Branch cross U.S. Route 7 near Georgetown/Branchville.

I remember seeing a set of crossbucks there that said on their blades "RAILROAD CROSSING" "STOP LOOK AND LISTEN" and the post said "New York, New Haven & Hartford". The rails looked to me like they hadn't been used in a long time and on the west side of U.S. 7 they disappeared into a thick mat of weeds and underbrush.

If the right of way on this line is still there, I don't thing wishing for a rail revival is unreasonable. While the grade might be steep, it was never operated with electric traction. If the line were restored and electrified (along with the accompanying Danbury Branch), then it might offer a valuable service to the residents in the area.

Why don't you ask some of your neighbors what they might think about the idea? Does Ridgefield have a chamber of commerce? If so, you might ask them, too.

Regards,
Fred M. Cain

The entire ROW is not intact. On the Branchville end, there's an elementary school on it a couple hundred yards from where it crossed US7, and a house a bit farther up Florida Road. On the Ridgefield end, Sunset Lane was re-routed onto the roadbed after the New Haven pulled out, and a medical office building was built on the ROW between the old passenger and freight stations. The passenger station itself and all the land around it were incorporated into the Ridgefield Supply lumberyard (the building still exists, with the old NYNH&H butterfly sheds walled up for storage). The intact portion is the middle three-odd miles from Prospect St. to Florida Rd., which was sold to the CL&P as a powerline ROW at some point in the '60s or '70s.

As someone who grew up in Ridgefield, attended Ridgefield schools, and is in the town pretty much every other weekend, I can assure you there would be almost no public support for a reactivated branch. There should be a bus connection between Branchville and Ridgefield Center (and I think there will be someday soon) but there are much, MUCH better rail-revival projects out there; even a revived Bridgeport Branch between Bridgeport and Botsford would make more sense.