UP Trains Collide in Goodwell, OK

One thing about the alerters ... it's been documented that sometimes a sleepy engineer will reset the alerter on autopilot, while either drowsy or fully asleep, purely as a reflexive action.

Not sure what the solution to that is ... other than possibly changing what will reset the alerter to something that requires more conscious thought ...

Mbta fan wrote:Ok, I was responding to David bentons post asking why it's taking so long for the report to come out. I should have made that more clear when I posted.

It would be nice to see a quicker response. The public doesn't need full results before the wreck is cleared away, but after a reasonable time for the facts to be collected (interviews, toxicology, recreations, etc). Some result should be made available. What isn't known now that will be known a year from now?

This isn't a situation where the wreckage has yet to be found or recovered ... and we HAVE seen the NTSB release preliminary findings on other incidents - so the expectation is not entirely out of line.



The attitude of some railroaders that it is none of the public's business is troubling. The NTSB is NOT a private company. It is a government operation ... and it being a government operation it is accountable to the people. And when trains are operated unsafely it affects more than just the railroad and their employees and families. It disrupts the communities the railroads run though. If you want to run your damn trains filled with hazardous materials through our towns be prepared to answer to the people who may (or may not) let you do that. And please, stop trying to discourage the people who are most likely to support your railroad's desires.

The biggest problem is when NEITHER side shows respect for the other. As a fan I'll do what I can to show respect, but if you fail to respect those who are interested in your industry to hell with your railroad - and your job if you work for one. I don't see any reason to support an industry that is not friendly to the public.

Fortunately most railroaders I have met have shown respect ... and I am happy to respect them.

litz wrote:One thing about the alerters ... it's been documented that sometimes a sleepy engineer will reset the alerter on autopilot, while either drowsy or fully asleep, purely as a reflexive action.

Not sure what the solution to that is ... other than possibly changing what will reset the alerter to something that requires more conscious thought ...

Multiple buttons where the right one needs to be pressed would help ... with systems that reset based on any activity it would be trivial to "program" oneself to respond without thought. PTC and lesser automatic controls will also help. If the system knows that the train should be slowing for a signal or known track conditions it can generate a more intelligent response than a brain dead system.

The attitude of some railroaders that it is none of the public's business is troubling. The NTSB is NOT a private company. It is a government operation ... and it being a government operation it is accountable to the people. And when trains are operated unsafely it affects more than just the railroad and their employees and families. It disrupts the communities the railroads run though. If you want to run your damn trains filled with hazardous materials through our towns be prepared to answer to the people who may (or may not) let you do that. And please, stop trying to discourage the people who are most likely to support your railroad's desires.

The biggest problem is when NEITHER side shows respect for the other. As a fan I'll do what I can to show respect, but if you fail to respect those who are interested in your industry to hell with your railroad - and your job if you work for one. I don't see any reason to support an industry that is not friendly to the public.

Fortunately most railroaders I have met have shown respect ... and I am happy to respect them. (quote)

Nobody is disrespecting anybody. Determining the cause or solution to any accident is not an easy chore. It is often not possible to present a preliminary finding when there are so many factors at work. What was destroyed that may have contributed to, or caused, the accident? One must tally any or all known eyewitnesses and sift their stories because they will likely be different due to different perspectives, different angles of view. There's so many factors involved that, while to the non-expert viewer, demanding an answer "RIGHT NOW" is likely premature. Too much rides upon the results. It also has LEGAL consequences if the answers are wrong. People today are ITCHING to file lawsuits, sitting as they do like buzzards awaiting a feast. False information, premature determinations can cause reversals of court decisions if the results are wrong and awards are made based upon them. Suits can result in counter-suits that would continue for decades if the info is inaccurate. Who wants that? Sure, there IS a reluctance to divulge info, but it will released to the people who have business knowing, not to Joe Blow who has no dog in that fight, only "his public interest as a citizen of a town, etc"

People in ALL facets of accident investigation from the companies, the military, to the government have standing orders to keep your damn mouth shut, refer the matter to the public affairs officer, do NOT talk to ANYBODY about the incident--only to those who are authorized.

Besides what's the hurry? Is YOUR "interest" a direct one, or are you an "armchair quarterback" kibbutzing the game? Rail buffs are just THAT"- KIbbutzers. They have nothing to do with the matter at hand, but they sure will be found at a derailment offering their "expert" advice on what happened! They "know": they read all about it in "Trains" magazine! LOL! Just like all those macho guys at the office water fountain after last Sunday's game. "He should've done this--he should've done that!" They'd win the game single-handedly to hear them tell it. HA! If they are so "expert" then why were THEY not selected to scrimmage? They don't GET it!' LMAO!

When the time is right, when all the facts are in, NTSB will release their findings.

GF

For those looking for preliminary results the UP report has been leaked. It is probably sure enough for a civil case.

The NTSB will out and be definitive enough for an murder trial.

I can't think of any accident scandals involving the UP but I suppose you always have to wait for that third party investigation to be sure.

Anyone else getting ready to petition our elected officials to further limit hours of service for train crews? It appears neither the employees, union or the companies are going to step up. Drat, another time big brother's rules ends up being necessary.

When the NTSB "Final" report is released to the public and in the "reconmended changes" part of the report is a call to
revise the "Hours of Service" rules/regs,thats when groups like "MADD" and "PATT" will rear up and start their lobbying efforts
for change,using the NTSB report as source material.
For now they wait quietly in the wings,ready to strike!

I can remember when the debate on truck driver's HOS rules raged on due to groups like "MADD" and "PATT" trying to restrict
drivers hours to the point of strangling the whole industry,and still protest to this day, long after the current HOS rules were "finallised"
and adopted by the trucking industry.

Hearing set on train collision in Oklahoma Panhandle

By Associated Press
Published: 2/13/2013 8:55 AM
Last Modified: 2/13/2013 8:55 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY — The National Transportation Safety Board has scheduled a hearing on a head-on train collision in the Oklahoma Panhandle.

The Feb. 26 hearing is to start at 9 a.m. in Washington, D.C.

The June 24, 2012, crash between eastbound and westbound Union Pacific trains near Goodwell killed three of four crewmembers on the two trains. A fourth crewmember was injured but survived after jumping from one of the trains just before the crash.

An NTSB preliminary report said the eastbound train was traveling at 64 miles per hour and the westbound train at 38 miles per hour when they slammed into each other. The speed limit is 70 miles per hour.

The NTSB has said it's analyzing recorders found in the wreckage to determine if the crews were receiving signals properly.

Railroad Accident Investigation Involving Two Freight Trains
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/2012 ... ation.html

At least an other puzzle piece has been shown,the investagation is still progressing.

So it looks like the crew woke up, dumped the air and then hit. Probably woke up from the westbound blasting his horn. Talk about waking up on the wrong side of the bed.

The animation showed a good idea of what happened based on recordings. Hopefully it won't be more then a few months till the "official" report pops up somewhere.

Freddy wrote:So it looks like the crew woke up, dumped the air and then hit. Probably woke up from the westbound blasting his horn. Talk about waking up on the wrong side of the bed.

Would the process of running through the eastern turnout of the siding be sufficiently noticeable (when "resting") to alert the crew of the eastbound train to see what was happening?

butts260 wrote:

Freddy wrote:So it looks like the crew woke up, dumped the air and then hit. Probably woke up from the westbound blasting his horn. Talk about waking up on the wrong side of the bed.

Would the process of running through the eastern turnout of the siding be sufficiently noticeable (when "resting") to alert the crew of the eastbound train to see what was happening?

I would've thought if they were going to wake up it would've been when they passed over the first one they came to which was at the west end.

Freddy wrote:

butts260 wrote:

Freddy wrote:So it looks like the crew woke up, dumped the air and then hit. Probably woke up from the westbound blasting his horn. Talk about waking up on the wrong side of the bed.

Would the process of running through the eastern turnout of the siding be sufficiently noticeable (when "resting") to alert the crew of the eastbound train to see what was happening?

I would've thought if they were going to wake up it would've been when they passed over the first one they came to which was at the west end.

West end was lined for them. East end was lined against them and they trailed through it.

lstone19 wrote:

Freddy wrote:

butts260 wrote:

Freddy wrote:So it looks like the crew woke up, dumped the air and then hit. Probably woke up from the westbound blasting his horn. Talk about waking up on the wrong side of the bed.

Would the process of running through the eastern turnout of the siding be sufficiently noticeable (when "resting") to alert the crew of the eastbound train to see what was happening?

I would've thought if they were going to wake up it would've been when they passed over the first one they came to which was at the west end.

West end was lined for them. East end was lined against them and they trailed through it.

I'm aware of that. But when you go over a turnout you're gonna feel it a lot more than just running on straight track ribbon rail. If the heelblocks in the switch don't sway the cab from side to
side then the frog most certainly will get your attention when you run across it.

Freddy wrote:

lstone19 wrote: West end was lined for them. East end was lined against them and they trailed through it.

I'm aware of that. But when you go over a turnout you're gonna feel it a lot more than just running on straight track ribbon rail. If the heelblocks in the switch don't sway the cab from side to
side then the frog most certainly will get your attention when you run across it.

There are degrees of roughness. My expectation is running through a switch is going to be a lot rougher than going through a switch lined for you, particularly when you're in a cab that's right over the truck doing the work.