The super short Capital Limited and others

west point wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:59 pm Have to challenge this assumption of day trains only is cheaper. IMO a sleeper's revenue per car is much more than a coach revenue.

A month out, a ticket CHI-BOS is $96 coach, $548 roomette, $1092 bedroom. Assuming three coaches and two sleepers, 100pct occupancy in coach and single occupancy in sleeper, you have a revenue of $44k per two-day journey. That's $22k/day.

Assuming the same ticket prices and five coaches on a day train, That's $55k/day revenue. Also dont' forget you aren't subsidizing the diner with three employees that loses money.

Not counting the diner, that's a $30k/day in favor of a coach day train.

west point wrote: ↑Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:59 pmWould I want to ride a day only route?.

It's not about you. It's about the traveling public. They want a 3-5 hour daytime ride. The 20+ hour rides on sleeper are less than 1% of the traveling public, who mostly choses to fly. I have a trip to LA in a few weeks, I just can't justify $3000 round trip and two days en route. My flight was $800ish and 6-8 hours each way including 90 min in ATL. I'll have a decent dinner at One Flew South.

While there I will ride Metrolink to a meeting in the burbs and maybe sneak in an evening at Orange Empire if I can get away from the customer entertainment.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:39 am It is not as if passengers needed to be rousted at 0-dark-30 as they would if the 1-21 or 7-27.and v.v. cars were eliminated. It also forces the Boston Mechanical Department to inventory parts to work on a bad ordered Viewliner and the outside contractor commissary to supply linens and possibly menu items not offered on the Regional and Acela trains (Downeaster I think has a separate commissary and non-Agreement staffing).

For the B&A, they surely have four a day in mind, one of which could readily connect with the Lake Shore under Mr. Dunville's proposal.

Downeaster has a private catering contractor, Epicurian Feast. The food service might be based in Portland, not Boston.

The Amfleet II on 448/449 has the same menu as any other Amfleet cafe. A cold meal is offered in sleepers
on 448/449, much like 27/28 to Portland.

Four a day is even more than in the later days of the New York Central, with two each direction BOS-ALB as of 1965.

'65 Mr. R36?; sounds to me from what I've learned (anonymous source) as if The Commonwealth has '53 - year of the Korean War "truce" - in mind.

Now what is of interest is that on the Continent, there is a revival of Sleeping Cars (OBB Night Jet and apparently others), known over there as "Night Train". Who knows to what extent such represents a viable business plan or simply dictated by that Swedish girl who has become Europe's "climate Czarina". Over here, were it not for the Congressional Pals of the experiential community and RPSA70, I think all would be gone.

Finally of interest, at present a March journey Berlin to Paris, a single occupancy Compartment (may or may not have a shower) is €445 (US$490) for a 1060 klick (650mi) journey. What kind of numbers do I hear for a Bedroom on the Lake Shore? "A Thou", don't I?

"of interest is that on the Continent, there is a revival of Sleeping Cars"

There is indeed a revival of sleepers over there. Five years ago there were perhaps 10 sleeper trains on the entire continent, now there are probably 50+. Before the Berlin Wall fell, there were probably 500.

One thing many of them share is the shortness of distance. Board at 11pm, arrive at 7am. That's a big difference to the US model of a 24-48 hour ride.

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:31 am There is indeed a revival of sleepers over there. Five years ago there were perhaps 10 sleeper trains on the entire continent, now there are probably 50+. Before the Berlin Wall fell, there were probably 500.

I should not dwell upon this at an Amtrak Forum topic (especiallywhen Mr. Benton has his Worldwide Railfan Forum at this site), but as I recall a '71 "Eurailpass Marathon" (yes, I really did those kind of things once upon a time), any routes I considered had Night Trains - and with Royal Blue and Gold trimmed Wagon Lits "stretching out of sight".

By '90, when I simply used trains "to get from here there to there" Wagon-Lit sleepers or DBB "Schlafwagons", were simply "down to one or two" on the trains I rode.

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:00 pm I think what too many people are missing is that the future of Amtrak isn't carrying people from Raleigh to Kansas City in a sleeper.

The future of Amtrak is about carrying people on day trips about 150-300 miles in length. It's time that the network start to resemble that.

Do both.

Seriously. If you can day-trip, no more than 10 hours, and get a cheap rate at a nearby hotel (Pittsburgh's Westin, for instance), then connect to another, sure. But don't kill your existing market for overnight travel.

Tadman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 13, 2024 9:31 am "of interest is that on the Continent, there is a revival of Sleeping Cars"
There is indeed a revival of sleepers over there. Five years ago there were perhaps 10 sleeper trains on the entire continent, now there are probably 50+. Before the Berlin Wall fell, there were probably 500.

One thing many of them share is the shortness of distance. Board at 11pm, arrive at 7am. That's a big difference to the US model of a 24-48 hour ride.

That's the market 66/67 and the late Executive Sleeper (866/867) aim for. If only VIA could reintroduce sleepers on
the Quebec-Toronto corridor, their equivalent of 66/67.

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Feb 12, 2024 9:00 pm The future of Amtrak is about carrying people on day trips about 150-300 miles in length. It's time that the network start to resemble that.

Wasn't the '79 "Carter Cuts" about that, rationalizing low density LD service in favor of more key routes?

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 4:33 am That's the market 66/67 and the late Executive Sleeper (866/867) aim for. If only VIA could reintroduce sleepers on
the Quebec-Toronto corridor, their equivalent of 66/67.

Wasn't the '79 "Carter Cuts" about that, rationalizing low density LD service in favor of more key routes?

Before scheduling less than 10 hour sleeper trains, let's provide many, many more less than 10 hour day trains.
Like 66/67 on the NEC, where one 10-12 overnight train exists in a corridor with dozens of day trains.
Should we not first look at existing travel and sales demand before providing a possible mostly empty sleeper train?

Everyone - There is a past VIA Rail Canada train that once offered sleeping car options between
Montreal and Toronto - Does anyone remember the "Cavalier"?
https://casostation.ca/hall-of-fame/cn-via-cavalier

The Cavalier service ended in late 1989 as VIA Rail Canada service cuts began leading to the major
January 15, 1990 VIA cutbacks brought on by the government of then-Progressive Conservative
Prime Minister Brian Mulroney...

Was there ever sleeping car service between Toronto and Quebec City?
On VIA or past CN or CP trains? MACTRAXX

electricron wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 6:01 am Weren't the '79 "Carter Cuts" about that, rationalizing low density LD service in favor of more key routes?

Ron, the '79 Carter Cuts were simply the first step in what was to occur during '76, or A-Day+5yr.

That was to start an orderly phase out of all LD routes and transform Amtrak to its underlying intent - the Corridor and support to any Local agency prepared to fund service nationwide.

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Wed Feb 14, 2024 8:11 am Does anyone remember the "Cavalier"?

Mr. MACTRAXX, I indeed remember The Cavalier; I rode it Toronto to Montreal during June '67.

The all Sleeper and Diner consist "stretched out of sight" (only time I saw it was on the curve into Gare Centrale), but it was CN's "last stand" when after Expo, it became evident that CN's aggressive pricing and "spiffing up" the fleet (much of which was comprised of heavyweight and hand me down US cars), that while there was a ridership increase, the deficit also did likewise.

I occupied the Drawing Room in a Park series Dome Observation car from Toronto to Montreal overnight in early 1999!

JB - I believe the VIA train that you rode was the "Enterprise" which was a revival of the overnight service
between Montreal and Toronto that was previously provided by the "Cavalier". VIA Rail Canada funding
cutbacks at some point (not sure as of this post specifically when) again ended this train service...

GBN - I will always remember the "Cavalier" for a overnight coach ride to solve a "lodging problem" back in
September 1985 between Toronto and Montreal during a rail vacation using a two-week VIA Canrail Pass for
the Ontario-Quebec Corridor (Cost: $155 CDN)...The Cavalier train the night I rode was well-patronized...

Sleeping Car services between major cities that are relatively close to one another (Toronto to Montreal is
335 miles) can have the potential of offering a train ride and hotel room together - the previous mention of
the Amtrak "Executive Sleeper" service (NYP-WAS) that ran with the "Night Owl" is another good example
of what were once available for overnight rail travel accommodations...MACTRAXX