Superliner Replacement Request For Proposal Released

Additionally, the cars are connected between each car with a minimum of a three conductor, or three individual cables. As soon as you disconnect a connecting cable, all the other cars behind it will be deenergized. Also, disconnecting a live 480Vac 3 phase cable from a socket will draw about a very bright and intense arc. Why install two disconnect throws or switches on every car (one on each end of the car) when at least one such throw or switch is located on the HEP generator or inverter in the locomotive already. Easier to disconnect the HEP from the entire train with one tag than hanging potentially 16 tags all along the train.
Here's a youtube slow-mo video of a 480Vac arc at a protected switchboard, note not at a plug.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PO6see7_ODY
In the video was an electrician wearing all the protected gear required by OSHA; hard hat, flame resistant clothing, safety glasses and safety shield, rubber gloves with leather gauntlets, safety shoes, and all metal removed from his/her pockets. The dummy electrician in that video would probably survive such a failure because of the safety gear.
When was the last time you saw a train conductor wearing that much PPE?

electricron wrote:When was the last time you saw a train conductor wearing that much PPE?

HEP amperage is around 200A or so. Arc flash as I remember doesn't requires PPE at 400A and lower, but perhaps that's changed in the last 30 years...

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eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:20 am

electricron wrote:When was the last time you saw a train conductor wearing that much PPE?

HEP amperage is around 200A or so. Arc flash as I remember doesn't requires PPE at 400A and lower, but perhaps that's changed in the last 30 years...

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I remember an episode of Nerve Center on Grand Central Terminal. One section was in the power section, where they had to shut off and completely isolate a power line at the distribution area. The person was putting on a ton of PPE, and had the grimmest comment about it:

I put this on so that my family has a body to bury.

Merry Christmas, everyone.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:35 am Merry Christmas, everyone.

I will second that and also wish everyone a happy new year.

From memory, the hep connectors have a shorter pin that controls a contactor, cutting the power pins off. It loses contact before the live pins, so they should be dead when disconnecting.
Happy new year to all.

Should be dead or are dead and verified dead are two different things.

Yes, test,prove,test here. Just pointing out pulling an arc is not the normal result.

True. Just like in the video I posted earlier, having an arc is not normal. But if there is a failure, a loose strand of wire shorting out two pins, 3 phase 480 Vac can produce such an arc. Best of deenergize and verify the circuit is dead.
FYI, UK 220 Vac single phase household currents have switches on the outlets to deengergize the receptacles before plugging in or unplugging household appliances. Why? Because of the arc created otherwise. If single phase 220Vac can do so, what do you think 3 phase 480Vac can do?

All I am suggesting is that Amtrak deenegizes the entire train while plugging in and unplugging cars from a train consist is for a reason, Safety. They deenergize the entire train whether they are changing the locomotive, first car or last car in the consist.

I understand that Amtrak deenergizes the entire train now. I've been on the train while this has happened. I've also been on occupied passenger cars moved from the Silver Star to the Capitol Limited (back when the Capitol Limited was single level) and have been on the Spokane-Portland coach that allowed us to board the coach at a reasonable time in the evening and, in theory, sleep through the Empire Builder arriving in Spokane at 0 dark 30 and wake in the morning en route (I don't know if that coach still runs that way, or if, when I used it, it was only a seasonal thing).

That's why I asked if hotel power could be provided by ground sources, and what could be done to minimize or eliminate passenger's ability to observe that hotel power had changed from ground to locomotive. Automatic switching between HEP and generators on cars so equipped is already available, but I am curious about the safety controls for that. It seems to me that existing HEP receptacle designs could be modified to have open/closed power switches incorporated into a locking mechanism that holds a cable in place and a positively locking cable that could still work with existing cables and receptacles.

Mr RandallW,

Once upon a time, Major Amtrak stations (Kansas City was one example), had ground power available to keep cars in interchange (there was a 10-6 Pullman transferred daily from the NATIONAL LIMITED to the SUPER CHIEF for through service to Los Angeles) powered between drop off and pickup.

Ron,switches on outlets are compulsory here. In addition, some outlets have shutters,so you can't put anything in the live "prong hole", unless the neutral also has something opening it. So hard for a kid to electrocute themselves.
Randall(?), the generator would be on the "other side" of a changeover switch, so it can't feed into the hep lines. The car can be fed from the hep, or the generator not both. In addition here, there must be a off position between the 2 options, so there is no chance of a flash over,or less chance I should say.
Some of the latest solar grid tiedinverters protect the grid by constantly drawing a small amount from the grid. I'm surprised the authorities allowed this, and anything I install or work on is mechanically isolated as well, or I don't touch it.

Absolutely, hotel power is available at some stations. Metra uses it for cars that layover in the terminal overnight as well as at outstations where servicing is scheduled.

In the motorhome/RV world, it's commonplace to have a separate 12V and 110V system within the cars. Lighting and essentials like water pumps run off the 12V circuitry, while HVAC and the galley run off 110V.

Railcars used to have a 48V lighting system prior to HEP, and I'd think it should be easy enough to have parallel electrical in a new build car, especially where LED lighting favors low voltage and amperage and would need stepdown if run off 110v (which generates some excess heat).

RandallW wrote: ↑Sun Dec 24, 2023 8:30 am Are there switches that allow HEP on a car to be disconnected such that it would be possible to to safely connect an engine or other car while HEP is on in the car, but the cables are not live where a trainman is working? I'm kind of under the impression the answer is "no", but I'm also under the impression that steam heating lines did have valves that would enable that kind of disconnection?

In the past I have advocated that Amtrak go to leased freight motors and HEP in baggage cars. People thought I was crazy.

Here's another good reason: If you have to swap power at Albany or Spokane, you keep the lights and heat on. If you have to split an entire train like on 48/49 or 7/8, you can have a baggage at either end with HEP powering the two sections which are never connected at midpoint.

A lot of people that aren't fans of the Siemens engines advocate for that. The problem is freight engines aren't designed for the higher passenger speeds. So you're sacrificing the ability to operate at speeds greater than 70MPH (and adding time to the schedule on some routes) for the benefit of getting a more common generic more proven locomotive that everyone uses without unique passenger components. For me it seems to be a waste to limit all the passenger cars, where you've invested in them to have the ability to go 125 MPH in some cases, to 70 MPH system wide just to use more locomotives more common in the industry. I'm not sure I'm a fan of having to timetable the entire network around what a freight locomotive is capable of particularly when I know it's possible to do better.

Where on the Amtrak national system outside of the NEC or other Amtrak-owned lines do trains operate at 125MPH? Nowhere that I am aware of... max passenger speeds usually top out at maybe 90mph, and in most places less than that. Freight locomotive specifications (EMD SD70 and GE Evolution Series) are usually quoted as having a ~70-75mph top speed, but that is primarily a factor of chosen gear ratio. There were fast dual service locomotives with 58:19 gear ratios that could do 89mph... great for a passenger train or a hot intermodal. Nothing to say Amtrak can't spec an AC44 or SD70 with equivalent gearing if they wanted to, but they have preferred four motor purpose-built passenger locomotives ever since AEM-7s and F40PHs replaced "I'm really a freight loco but I have a fancy paint scheme" SDP-40Fs and E60s.

Note: edited to specifically refer to Amtrak - I am aware Brightline operates at 125 but this is Amtrak we are talking about.