Superliner Catenary question

Related question:

Can Amtrak use a dielectric membrane on Superliner roofs to minimize shock risk under catenary? Again, for positioning movements, not necessarily for revenue.

Here's a better question:

IF the NEC from BOS through NYP, PHL, to WAS is the only place Superliners don't fit does a completely different plan work?

Such as LSL and Cap are now overnight trains from Albany and Pitt to Chicago, and Silver/Crescent are now overnight trains from Washington to NOLA and Florida.

Their timetable slot is occupied by coach trains that connect with the outbound (from northeast) LD train at Albany, Pitt, or Washington.

No more need for Viewliner sleepers or diners. The Viewliner sleeper and diner is much less efficient than the comparable Superliner .

Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Jan 31, 2020 4:34 pm Here's a better question:
IF the NEC from BOS through NYP, PHL, to WAS is the only place Superliners don't fit does a completely different plan work?
Such as LSL and Cap are now overnight trains from Albany and Pitt to Chicago, and Silver/Crescent are now overnight trains from Washington to NOLA and Florida.
Their timetable slot is occupied by coach trains that connect with the outbound (from northeast) LD train at Albany, Pitt, or Washington.
No more need for Viewliner sleepers or diners. The Viewliner sleeper and diner is much less efficient than the comparable Superliner.

Moving long distance trains away from New York City specifically and along the NEC generally allows running Superliner trains as you suggested, south and west from DC, Pittsburgh, and Albany. That frees up space for more Acela and Regional all coach trains on the NEC. But that forces many long distance passengers to transfer to sleeper trains elsewhere. How many must be asked and answered?
Amtrak ridership data that might surprise you.
Amtrak has a total of 31.7 million passengers in 2017 per Wiki.
Yearly top 20 station totals per Wiki (FY2018)
1 New York Penn Station 10,132,025
2 Washington Union Station 5,197,237
3 Philadelphia 30th Street Station 4,471,992
*4 Chicago Union Station 3,388,307
*5 Los Angeles Union Station 1,717,405
6 Boston South Station 1,553,953
*7 Sacramento Valley Station 1,089,223
8 Baltimore Penn Station 1,041,232
*9 Albany–Rensselaer 800,368
10 Providence 766,492
11 BWI Rail Station 756,553
12 Wilmington 702,150
13 Newark Penn Station 702,182
*14 San Diego Santa Fe Depot 699,430
15 New Haven Union Station 697,603
*16 Seattle King Street Station 686,426
17 Boston Back Bay 683,016
*18 Milwaukee Intermodal Station 604,631
*19 Emeryville 595,017
*20 Portland Union Station 576,339
Of the top 20, 11 of them are located on the NEC. Totaling the 11 stations on this list, ridership was 25,323,816.
Some math follows: 25.3 million / 31.7 million x 100 = 79.8%
Those 11 stations are not all the stations Amtrak visits on the NEC. So I believe it is safe to state than 4 out of 5 Amtrak passengers start or end their trips on the NEC. Why should that ratio differ between long distance and regional trains?

Additionally, New York Penn Station makes up 39.9% of the ridership on the NEC (at least with these 11 stations)
Math again: 10.1 million / 25.3 million x 100 = 39.9%
That's almost 2 out of 5 passengers for the NEC alone.
And some more math: 10.1 million / 31.7 million x 100 = 31.9%
And almost 1 out of 3 passengers nationally.

Anyway you wish to look at it, New York and the NEC have a significant share of Amtrak ridership. That's why all those long distance trains go to New York - if only to avoid many, many transfers elsewhere.

Regarding switching the LSL to Superliners and making it an Albany to Chicago train

Some of the recently built new stations in Upstate NY are high level platforms so boarding between Albany and Buffalo could be an issue.

Or run the entire LSL out of BOS.

ebtmikado wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:08 am Or run the entire LSL out of BOS.

Why would anyone wish to turn a long distance train from either a station that has 1,553,953 (BOS) passengers or
800,368 (ALB) passengers when you have your busiest 10,132,025 (NYP) passengers available?
Just to put that into perspective slightly better, here is some math:
10132025 / 1443953 = 7.016
10132025 / 800368 = 12/659
Yes, a station with 7 times or 12 times more customers.
Note, that\s not 7% or 12% more, but 700% or 1200% more.

Whether you believe Amtrak should be in the business or earning the most money possible or moving the most passengers possible, you are going to want to provide a service to the most possible. And the huge truth the data I have posted in my last few replys is that New York Penn is by far Amtrak's busiest station.

I remember riding the Capitol Limited from Pittsburg to DC back when it was all heritage equipment. They had a dome car in the consist and we had to vacate the dome before entering the NEC for safety reasons because of the closeness of Cat wires. It would be interesting to know what the height of the typical dome was as compared to the Superliners.

Personally I'd like to see the amfleets replaced with viewliner cars. I think the viewliner is a well designed carbody with it's larger windows and upper row of windows. To bad the company with the order completely messed up the delivery schedule. If Amtrak owns the design hopefully they can seek out another builder and get more cars. It would be good to have a standard car type for all eastern LD's plus you would still originate out of NYP and service at Sunnyside.

J.D. Lang wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:30 am I remember riding the Capitol Limited from Pittsburg to DC back when it was all heritage equipment. They had a dome car in the consist and we had to vacate the dome before entering the NEC for safety reasons because of the closeness of Cat wires. It would be interesting to know what the height of the typical dome was as compared to the Superliners.

Wiki can be your friend!
Pullman domes and Milwaukee domes were 15 ft 6 in (4,720 mm) tall rather than the Budd/ACF standard 15 ft 10 in (4,830 mm).
FYI, A Viewliner is 14 ft (4.27 m) tall. An Amfleet is 12 ft 8 in (3.86 m) tall. A Superliner is 16 ft 2 in (4.93 m) tall.

Can we add some context here, for a minute? Some folks are confused and are too lazy to "Just Google That."

The NEC caternary line's height is between 15' and 22'. This makes sense for having a 14' 6" tall car.

electricron wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:42 am Pullman domes and Milwaukee domes were 15 ft 6 in (4,720 mm) tall rather than the Budd/ACF standard 15 ft 10 in (4,830 mm).
FYI, A Viewliner is 14 ft (4.27 m) tall. An Amfleet is 12 ft 8 in (3.86 m) tall. A Superliner is 16 ft 2 in (4.93 m) tall.

So to shove a Superliner under the wires on the NEC, the minimum has to be roughly 17' tall off the rails. This assumes a minimum buffer between car body and wire of 6 inches.

Raising the line outside is not an issue. It's the stations with bridges/roofs/etc that we need to worry about.

• NYP: Can't be done w/o major reconstruction of the tunnels and station.
• PHL: Needs track lowering.
• BAL: Same as NYP.
• WAS: Probably needs track lowering... but that may need a garage reconstruction.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:46 am
[*]WAS: Probably needs track lowering... but that may need a garage reconstruction.

I just read this yesterday on Wikipedia:

A project to enlarge the First Street Tunnel in Washington, D.C., enabled the Chicago–Washington Cardinal to begin using Superliners in September 1995

ebtmikado wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:08 am Or run the entire LSL out of BOS.

There was a time when 448/449 was demoted to a connecting shuttle, then back to through service.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 10:46 am Raising the line outside is not an issue. It's the stations with bridges/roofs/etc that we need to worry about.

• NYP
• PHL
• BAL
• WAS

How about the tunnel at BBY? The Worcester Line, however is not wired.

J.D. Lang wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 9:41 am Personally I'd like to see the amfleets replaced with viewliner cars. If Amtrak owns the design hopefully they can seek out another builder and get more cars.

It is a proprietary design, first built in the late 80s at Beech Grove (though shells subcontracted to Budd). The 1995-1996 sleepers were by MK and fabricated at Pullman in Chicago (the last ever cars built at Pullman).

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:30 pm I just read this yesterday on Wikipedia:

A project to enlarge the First Street Tunnel in Washington, D.C., enabled the Chicago–Washington Cardinal to begin using Superliners in September 1995

How about the Capital Limited? Going south to go west isn't an issue. The terminal area to QN Tower is the issue in WAS.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:12 am

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Sat Feb 01, 2020 7:30 pm I just read this yesterday on Wikipedia:

A project to enlarge the First Street Tunnel in Washington, D.C., enabled the Chicago–Washington Cardinal to begin using Superliners in September 1995

How about the Capital Limited? Going south to go west isn't an issue. The terminal area to QN Tower is the issue in WAS.

Capital Limited is Superliner equipped.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:28 am Capital Limited is Superliner equipped.

So they can shove a Superliner under the root of Union and still have a 6" gap between it and the caternary? It's 17' off the rail?