Southern Tier - why so much upkeep for little traffic?

Wow. I got lambasted a few posts back. I like your passion.

After my meeting with NS developers Tom Washbon, Wednesday (actually a former EL/CR Port Jervis yardmaster) and Charlie Barker, I'll be doing a few test shipments for a couple of interested manufacturers here at WIN Transmodal.

There are a number of indicators to measure line viability. But, I don't think it's worth the effort here. The answer from Tom is "hedging". He said he tried to kill the line three times and it just wont die. Great stories.

Will there be another train added? I got kicked around for the "rumor". For the vertical power aspirationist forum writers - yes. Then, you'll want to know when. Verticle power aspirationists will want a black and white date. NS is not there yet. They will be soon. Line viability indicators need to be met first.

Development meetings are in Norfolk today and tomorrow. Do you want line viability/productivity indicators? That should be another post I think.

Gentlemen, I know you want more concrete facts. This will always be a rumor until a full announcement is made public. It won't be yet. The fact is that, according to Tom, Allentown - Newark (LV) is a choke point. Line viability was studied on using the ST Line, is being studied,and will continue to be studied. This doesn't move quickly. These two have such an immense territory I pity their wives and families. But they love what they do.

One of the hardest things right now as a company , they say, is getting operations to call a crew. Having enough crews. Calling a crew effects productivity measures.

These two are the ones who put the Patriot Corridor together - doing the spade work. They made a great effort to come to Elmira.

The ST Line during CR was never a money maker, the NYSW stackers were just marginal accolades to meet state mandates. As were the OIBU and BUIO, ELOI, OIEL. 38 trains per week mandates. Coming out of OI with 110 cars and after Campbell Hall 6 - 8 cars until the Binghamton pick up. Crazy stories.

Oh keep on refuting my posts. Why do I subject myself? This is supposed to be enjoyable and it is not. I guess that's why Sam Botts (now out at the DME/ICE) doesn't chime in anymore either.

Okay, I formally apoligize for the rumor mill attacks!... Did not realize you were the "real deal" in here.
Obviously your wealth of information is welcomed with open arms in here!!


Now, you mention Bellevue, Ohio as a terminating or originating spot for these new ST trains??

There is no offense taken. I just get a little frustrated when I try to portray what is going on out there. Railroading is a great investment and business. I see that trend continuing and growing as our society shifts from Just in Time to scheduled delivery.

I'm trying to find my previous post as I have lost my notes on the trains expected to run the Patriot. I'll find it and get back to you. But 309/310 are the pair that currently run Bellvue to Gang Mills. Bellvue is an NS hub. Buffalo is a block swapper terminal currently and underutilized. Gang Mills is packed mostof the time. That's why Elmira has it's own Tmaster now for the H-88, Mahoopany, Sayre, Ithaca, and other turns as needed. Elmira's busy with it's own drill. Why I just saw 4 cars of lumber from Mississippi go up the Horseheads Industrial and return with 8 MTs. Those four spines of lumber represent $40,000.00 to NS because they are an all NS routing for the Millenium pipeline. I wish I made 40K in revenue today. But only $2700.

GangMills operational budget is already exhausted for 2008 due to the tremendous growth. So what fund will it come out of?

As far as east of Binghamton, Tom and Charlie consider Operating Revenues per Employee, Carloads per Employee, Revenue Ton Miles per Employee, Revenue Ton MIles per mile of Road Operated, Operating Expenses per Employee (fuel kicks this number out of the ballpark on many marginal lines),Operating Expenses per Carload, Gross Ton Miles per Train Hour, Revenue Ton Miles per Train Hour. Benchmarks need to be met for viability. Needless to say if Tom says they are "hedging" (I assume staying ahead of the curve in growth), then NS shall once again ply Bing to PJ and points east.

I'll get those numbers to you when I find my notes.

K4Pacific,

Keep posting your information, it is most appreciated!

Chris

The real shame of the line is how much of it was removed. It is a single track line all the way from Suffern/Sloatsburg to Binghamton and again from Waverly to Buffalo. MNRR/NJT commuter service needs what little track space there is between PJ and Suffern. NS has to sandwich its locals in someplace and NYSW operates by "windows" west of Campbell Hall. Adding a second track would have to be a must in order to keep that part of the line sort of liquid. West of Port, the single track line would also have to be doubled up in order to get any traffic flow between the slow twisting and turning route along the Delaware or over Gulf Summit and on into Bingahmton. CR of course gets the blame for downgrading the line to such an extent. CR's philosophy was that they wanted the PRR and NYC routes and wanted them to flourish. So fix it so their other properties between NYC and the west would not be of any use to anyone else but not let anyone have it anyway. The route west of Hornell is another of the castaways via the same CR philosophy. The So. Tier Line is still a good high and wide route, it is a good route to clear up a clogged Buffalo gateway in the winter time, and it has to be revived in order to get the Southern Tier of New York economically revived.

What great news. Its a great line and unerused. I recall when the Conrail thing came down NS promised trains for the tier, only to have it never materialize. It seems logical to run em at night west and east in the morning. I'm sure NS isin't pleased with the LV east of Aldene and up to Croxton. NJT/CSX and NS make it fun to watch..but can be frusterating i'm sure if they don't make their "window" into croxton. NJT has the capacity with triple tracks east of WC to WJ and the Bergen county line is CTC? I believe. A small investment of one siding west of Cambell Hall would do wonders and they could truely see the wonders of this railroad!

I apologize for not sticking up for K4Pacific before, I thought we were all aware of his prior "track record" as a reliable poster. Please keep the info coming as you can feed it. We're all anxious to learn more.

-otto-

One question..why would the former EL/CR Port Jervis yardmaster want traffic off the line? Seems as he could have had this move done earlier but didn't want it. Was it the long routing to Binghamton? or commuter trains east of PJ?

northjerseybuff wrote:One question..why would the former EL/CR Port Jervis yardmaster want traffic off the line? Seems as he could have had this move done earlier but didn't want it. Was it the long routing to Binghamton? or commuter trains east of PJ?

Well, I thought it was pretty obvious here:

K4Pacific wrote:The fact is that, according to Tom, Allentown - Newark (LV) is a choke point. Line viability was studied on using the ST Line, is being studied,and will continue to be studied.

NS has an unbelievable amount of traffic on the Lehigh Line. They'd like to study the viability of using the Southern Tier for relief. Until the traffic level surge, it wasn't viable to add extra crews and trains to the Tier. Now, it might be.

-otto-

One of the main problems, after condition of the line, is accessability. East of PJ the main thrust is for NJT services with only NS locals on and off unlike being an "extension" of a yard. Even NYSW's NJ route is single track, very gradient challanged, and wandering.

I just had a wild thought. Since the NJ Cut Off is not a good route into the Metropolitan area because of clearances, congestion, and lack of yard access, why not rebuild from Glen Gardner to Delaware to Portland? The old Warren Railroad which was the original DL&W property connection to the CNJ before acquiring the Morris and Essex. Ah, but I digress....

henry6 wrote: why not rebuild from Glen Gardner to Delaware to Portland? The old Warren Railroad which was the original DL&W property connection to the CNJ before acquiring the Morris and Essex. Ah, but I digress....

The much more viable and less expensive option would be to rebuild the CNJ from Glen Gardner to the Central Running track at Bloomsbury,which then eventually connects to the current Lehigh Line. That would take some of the burdon off the Lehigh Line in, at least the NJ portion. That is looking into the distant future though...

IMHO, The ST line into NJ still seems like the most viable route for the short term expansion when it comes to adding trains since the line is already in place!

Hi again. And I must preface that my wife and I after cranky days at work quickly emptied a bottle of red wine for our dinner.

To the comment of wanting to kill the ST Line...

He told me great stories about CR's lonest travelling road switcher. BUOI/OIBU. I used to see them go by and thought gee, neat what variety. Well. That poor crew and I Knew a few of them. Dick Fitzferald, Art Santulli, and others would stop at every knook and cranny that need a car or two. I'm stopping a 110 car train and you remember how long they were, for a one or two car switch at Hankins, Narrowsburg, etc. Come on.

BUOI would make Gang Mills in 12 hours. Then, GM to Elmira for a SO/PU, then Binghamton on the Liberty St. crossovers for a SO/PU, struggle up to Gulf Summit, SO/PU down the Delaware, Tom never could predict when BUOI would get in under the 12 or not, get a crew out to rescue.

He said the line was offered to CP twice! Twice! They saw the numbers. So they run to NYC on the CSX at no profit what so ever. Didn't know the market, but by God they are in NYC and Philly for that matter.

The third time ended up being this NYSW agreement. The key is it's tax deferred. Tax deferred. Remember CR was paying in NYS taxes the combined 13 states it ran. The WNYP west of Hornell is tax deferred.

So it's basically a mothballed yet lightly used line. "Hedging" on the future growth. Tom and Charlie were good friends with Walter. They went to his funeral. They told me that while they took me around Newark, NJ rail sites and Doremus and all the turbin head truck drivers. Then we had a great lunch at a Portuguese high end restaurant in Newark next to a classic car place.

We are trying to get Wagner Lumber in Alpine not to send 12 truck containers a day to the port at $1275 a piece and put three on one car for a test. Who will transload down at the port into a container? China picks and chooses sticks (hickory white oak and ash) for their furniture they make and ship it back to the US.

Good God three =four days by rail. Six hours at the most to the Port by truck. Would you pay the premium so you wouldn't have two extra handles on your sticks? Think! Your thoughts? Make it work for me.

Am I rambling tonite? That means bedtime!

Remember, back when the USRA set up CR there was a 40 or 50 mile radius around NYC inside which no railroad found profitable enough to operate...the rule of thumb became "east of the Delaware River". Back then, CP was right. Today, with new found traffic from more containers to demolition waste, the story is different.

K4Pacific wrote:He said the line was offered to CP twice! Twice! They saw the numbers. So they run to NYC on the CSX at no profit what so ever. Didn't know the market, but by God they are in NYC and Philly for that matter.

Something about that... I remember reading an article about the Tier in TRAINS in 1993, and it was two years after CP bought the D&H, and CP says they were in negotiations with Conrail for the Tier when Conrail abruptly broke off talks. Conrail says CP would not agree to their terms. The finger pointing never ended and the Tier remained with Conrail.

-otto-