Adirondack suspended starting 5/20/2024

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 10:03 am Once again how does Amtrak turn and service the train IF it ends up at what was once Windsor Station. There are no facilities for such.

Define "turn and service". Do you have to completely service the entire train? It's a 12 hour train, compared to many trains that run 48 hours. Dump the trash, fill the water, drop off food for the cafe, send it back to Murica. If you need to refuel, have a fuel truck meet it south of the border on either NB or SB or both. If the Chief can make it KC to ABQ in 17 hours without a service stop, why does the Adirondack need to be serviced in Montreal?

Tadman wrote: ↑Wed May 15, 2024 7:26 pm

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Mon May 13, 2024 10:03 am Once again how does Amtrak turn and service the train IF it ends up at what was once Windsor Station. There are no facilities for such.

Define "turn and service". Do you have to completely service the entire train? It's a 12 hour train, compared to many trains that run 48 hours. Dump the trash, fill the water, drop off food for the cafe, send it back to Murica. If you need to refuel, have a fuel truck meet it south of the border on either NB or SB or both. If the Chief can make it KC to ABQ in 17 hours without a service stop, why does the Adirondack need to be serviced in Montreal?

As this is considered an initial terminal for the train it would have to be serviced. So yes cleaned, watered, fueled AND most importantly INSPECTED. Brakes, mechanical, I-ETMS and ACSES. The last two of which are only good for 24 hours. It is those pesky rules and paperwork thingies that keep popping up. This is one reason why the train has yet to move to what was Windsor Station, once again nowhere to service the train.

That makes sense, but if MUCTC or EVO originates trains here, couldnt Amtrak pay them to do the same? For that matter if Amtrak has an employee or pays a Via employee to do this three blocks away at Central Station, why can't that person walk the three blocks (or take a company pickup full of tools) if EVO is unwilling?

Tadman wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 1:10 pm That makes sense, but if MUCTC or EVO originates trains here, couldnt Amtrak pay them to do the same? For that matter if Amtrak has an employee or pays a Via employee to do this three blocks away at Central Station, why can't that person walk the three blocks (or take a company pickup full of tools) if EVO is unwilling?

Are we sure the servicing happens at Central? Adirondack used to park at VIA MMC and was presumably serviced there, alongside its VIA P42 cousins.

EXO operates no GE power from Lachine Maintenance Center, only EMD and CAT, although they do have Chargers on order for delivery next year, if Adirondack is slated for a similar change at some point.

dowlingm wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 2:35 pm

Tadman wrote: ↑Thu May 16, 2024 1:10 pm That makes sense, but if MUCTC or EVO originates trains here, couldnt Amtrak pay them to do the same? For that matter if Amtrak has an employee or pays a Via employee to do this three blocks away at Central Station, why can't that person walk the three blocks (or take a company pickup full of tools) if EVO is unwilling?

Are we sure the servicing happens at Central? Adirondack used to park at VIA MMC and was presumably serviced there, alongside its VIA P42 cousins.

EXO operates no GE power from Lachine Maintenance Center, only EMD and CAT, although they do have Chargers on order for delivery next year, if Adirondack is slated for a similar change at some point.

You are correct the Adirondack is serviced at the VIA MMC and stored there overnight. The train can be turned one of three ways of which one is now verboten by CN. So lets go with with what I remember as the most common. Drop your passengers in Gare Central and back out to the Victoria Bridge then pull into the MMC. That way in the morning once you have your paperwork from VIA TOP you can just back into Gare Central. The other way is to back into the MMC after dropping your passengers then in the morning its out to the bridge and back to the station.


Here is the kicker there is or was a VIA crew on duty about the same time as we were, so we wanted to get out ahead of them. Not to prove anything just so we could grab a cup of coffee or breakfast if you had the time. Crews did or still do a lot of running around in the morning. Hotel to the station to get your paperwork, hopefully its ready. Then off to the MMC to get your train, A brake test, an inspection to be sure all is in working order, then it is off to the station. Two hour sign up and some days 90 minutes of can be spent running around.

I don't think Windsor Station helps the situation any.

Ridership in 2023 was 26,892 or with some quick math 74 passengers per trip, of course some days are higher and some lower but do not know where to get daily ridership numbers or even what portion of the route each passenger rode. That is pretty low ridership to warrant a huge capital investment,

That was FY 23 boardings - the train only resumed running on April 3, and Amtrak's fiscal year ends September 30. So that's 6 months of ridership, including a month of Albany-only and two of Saratoga-only. Montreal had 6k boardings in those three months, or about 60 passengers on each train that crosses the border.

Full-year counts from pre-COVID were about 120k passengers (~165 per train), of which 38k boarded at Montreal (~50 per train).

It is only ~ 49 miles from MTR to the NY border RSP. Unless time MTR <> RSP is reduced from 2 hours to 1 hour and the 1 hour+ customs is eliminated the rider potential for Canada will never be realized. As well, then the Vermonter maybe overnight will also have even more potential riders. Cutting Adirondack to 9 hours and Vermonter to 12 hours MTR <> NYP has the potential to boost rider substantially.

Will never happen unless US president and Canadian PM agree with proper legislation so expect it to never happen. Such an agreement would need to include Maple Leaf, Detroit - Toronto, Cascades, & proposed Winnepeg / Calgary service to Montana.
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What you need is more trains; good luck getting 'em.

When I first visited The Dominion during '56, inspectors from each agency boarded the train (Monttesler) at the border and interviewed the passengers en route

The proper legislation is in place between Canada and the USA (look up Customs and Border Protection Preclearance), and Amtrak asked Congress to fund the necessary facilities in Vancouver, Montreal, and Windsor in their FY 2025 grant request (Toronto is not on that list because the Maple Leaf makes 4 stops in Canada).

So if you want to make it happen, call your congress person.

NY&LB wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 2:11 pm Ridership in 2023 was 26,892 or with some quick math 74 passengers per trip, of course some days are higher and some lower but do not know where to get daily ridership numbers or even what portion of the route each passenger rode.

Comes closes to fitting the average number in one coach. Given low density ALB-MTL seems fit for a RDC/DMU type service with 1-2 cars, much like B&M, CP and the New Haven in their day.

west point wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 4:21 pm Will never happen unless US president and Canadian PM agree with proper legislation so expect it to never happen. Such an agreement would need to include Maple Leaf, Detroit - Toronto, Cascades, & proposed Winnepeg / Calgary service to Montana.

Both sides can simply reach a memorandum of understanding without legislation or treaty, in fact much simpler
than an interstate compact between two or more states, which requires an act of Congress (PANYNJ a notable example).

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 4:32 pm What you need is more trains; good luck getting 'em.

When I first visited The Dominion during '56, inspectors from each agency boarded the train (Monttesler) at the border and interviewed the passengers en route

I think that arrangement ended (in the 1980s?) when Customs decided or was told to begin charging Amtrak for the Customs officers' travel time and would likely want the same for the service to resume. And the examination today goes well beyond "Did you acquire anything while you were in Canada?". Today they'd need a place to hold suspected drug smugglers and the like while they summon law enforcement -- probably impossible aboard the train.

Mr. ExCon, regarding your immediate:

amtrak-considers-extending-wolverine-li ... l#p1644417

Mr. Norman, I'm assuming that CBP would plan on a worst-case scenario. If the train is standing at a border station law enforcement is at hand, but if it's moving they're on their own while they call ahead for the train to be met somewhere. So it looks like the best we can hope for is pre-clearance.

R36 Combine Coach wrote: ↑Fri May 17, 2024 8:32 pmComes closes to fitting the average number in one coach. Given low density ALB-MTL seems fit for a RDC/DMU type service with 1-2 cars, much like B&M, CP and the New Haven in their day.

Has Amtrak ever considered adding a stop in Saint Jean? It’s the same distance from there to Rouses Point as it is from Plattsburgh to Rouses Point and from there to Montreal it’s a similar distance to between Port Kent and Plattsburgh. It’s also the most populous municipality in that part of the Southern Counties/Eastern Townships general area (through which the Richelieu River is a prominent thoroughfare).

As long as Amtrak is literally held captive to the CN route they might as well give it a try. Even if they have to have VIA partner with them like they do with the Maple Leaf.