• Service via Mountain View to Wanaque?

  • Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.
Discussion related to New Jersey Transit rail and light rail operations.

Moderators: lensovet, Kaback9, nick11a

  by Roadgeek Adam
 
I know its a kind of quiet project from the old wishlist, but its one I like. The Pompton Extension to the NYSW service via Mountain View. Would this service be of use, in theory. Also, would it work if we got the line to go north to Wanaque, similarly to the NYGL did years ago? I feel like if we could mix the service in with the service to Butler-Charlotteburgh and north (if it ever happens). In theory and in the long run we could tie this in into electrification up to Wayne - Route 23, taking diesel to Mountain View, Ryerson Avenue, Pequannock, Pompton Plains, Pompton-Riverdale, Pompton Junction Transit Center (with transfer between the two lines, and Montclair-Boonton extra service), Haskell and Wanaque-Midvale. I do think honestly, building the two lines together would benefit Passaic County since several towns would recieve new connections to NYC and Hoboken. Thoughts?
  by blockline4180
 
Roadgeek Adam wrote:I know its a kind of quiet project from the old wishlist, but its one I like. The Pompton Extension to the NYSW service via Mountain View. Would this service be of use, in theory. Also, would it work if we got the line to go north to Wanaque, similarly to the NYGL did years ago? I feel like if we could mix the service in with the service to Butler-Charlotteburgh and north (if it ever happens). In theory and in the long run we could tie this in into electrification up to Wayne - Route 23, taking diesel to Mountain View, Ryerson Avenue, Pequannock, Pompton Plains, Pompton-Riverdale, Pompton Junction Transit Center (with transfer between the two lines, and Montclair-Boonton extra service), Haskell and Wanaque-Midvale. I do think honestly, building the two lines together would benefit Passaic County since several towns would recieve new connections to NYC and Hoboken. Thoughts?

This is very unlikely now that NYSW has lifted the rails south of Morris Pipe. Not only that, but I think Morris County is in the middle of making a rail trail on portions of the old NYGL.
  by cobra30689
 
IIRC when 287 was finished the original ROW was filled in. Lived in Wanaque for 10 years....my house was behind where the old yard used to be....always said it would have been nice to have the RR there.
  by Roadgeek Adam
 
cobra30689 wrote:IIRC when 287 was finished the original ROW was filled in. Lived in Wanaque for 10 years....my house was behind where the old yard used to be....always said it would have been nice to have the RR there.
Not completely sure about that since I"ve heard at least the station site is a school parking lot
  by cobra30689
 
Roadgeek Adam wrote:
cobra30689 wrote:IIRC when 287 was finished the original ROW was filled in. Lived in Wanaque for 10 years....my house was behind where the old yard used to be....always said it would have been nice to have the RR there.
Not completely sure about that since I"ve heard at least the station site is a school parking lot
Wanaque Elementary School was built on the grounds of the old yard and turntable....as far as the station, I don't think the ORIGINAL station still stands, but there is a building there...remember the station was about 1/2 mile south of the yard...the ROW comes and goes at that point.
  by Roadgeek Adam
 
cobra30689 wrote:
Roadgeek Adam wrote:
cobra30689 wrote:IIRC when 287 was finished the original ROW was filled in. Lived in Wanaque for 10 years....my house was behind where the old yard used to be....always said it would have been nice to have the RR there.
Not completely sure about that since I"ve heard at least the station site is a school parking lot
Wanaque Elementary School was built on the grounds of the old yard and turntable....as far as the station, I don't think the ORIGINAL station still stands, but there is a building there...remember the station was about 1/2 mile south of the yard...the ROW comes and goes at that point.
Been gone, caught fire and wreck hauled away
  by Idiot Railfan
 
Being a longtime fan of the Greenwood Lake Division, here are a couple things I can offer:

1) Yes, the ROW was buried under I-287 just south of Union Ave.

2) The bike path, long under consideration but not yet started, is designed so that it would not interfere with any rail operations, including restoration of passenger service.

3) The Wanaque station was demolished in late 1966, I believe, after a fire not long after passenger service ended.

4) The rails have been lifted in spots though Pequannock, but in the long run, that would not be a deal-breaker if restoration of passenger service is considered as the ROW and tracks would be rebuilt anyway. (Unlike reopening freight line, where slow speeds can be tolerated.)

5) The trestle over the Pompton River is in very bad shape. It has been damaged by several fires on the wooden track and a derailment or two that came in contract with the structure. Plates were welded to the ends of the trestle to prevent anyone crossing it.

6) Routing passenger service from the NYS&W tracks west of Pompton Junction down the Greenwood Lake -- which would be a much shorter commute for passengers upper Passaic and Sussex counties -- would require the restoration of the southwest connection between the GL and NYS&W, which crossed over the Pompton River. It was removed in the late 1950s, and the embankment can still be seen leading off the Greenwood Lake opposite Ber Plastics. However, the embankment on the NYS&W side was removed in the late 1980s for the mitigation pond for the construction of I-287. That would be a formidable environmental barrier to overcome.

7) For a few years Mountain View functioned similar to the Montclair University station. When passenger trains on the DL&W Boonton Line were diverted onto the Greenwood Lake beginning in 1963 (when the Boonton Line around Garrett Mountain was abandoned for the construction of I-80), the single-track Erie Mountain View station reconfigured so that the new wye to the Boonton Line split off from the GL east of the station, so that two tracks ran through the station: One to the GL to Wanaque and the other the Boonton Line west to Dover. This arrangement allowed for off-peak shuttle trains to be waiting to take GL passengers to Wanaque who transfered from Boonton Line trains across the platform. I would have to check my old timetables, but I think by the time service to Wanaque was abandoned in 1966, all the trains to that destination were shuttles, with no direct service between Wanaque and Hoboken.

8) In the late 80s and early 90s Passaic County and the state were considering building a road on the ROW west of the site of the Wanaque station from Ringwood Ave. near West Brook Road, reconnecting with Ringwood Ave. several miles south to alleviate traffic on Ringwood Ave. It was determined it would not make a big difference and in fact would create bottlenecks were the bypass connected with Ringwood Ave.

9) Pompton-Riverdale station still had an agent until the summer of 1970, four years after passenger serviced ended. Apparently there was still enough local freight business to justify the agent until he retired.

10) The Pompton Plains station was recently restored.
  by Roadgeek Adam
 
Idiot Railfan wrote:Being a longtime fan of the Greenwood Lake Division, here are a couple things I can offer:

1) Yes, the ROW was buried under I-287 just south of Union Ave.

2) The bike path, long under consideration but not yet started, is designed so that it would not interfere with any rail operations, including restoration of passenger service.

3) The Wanaque station was demolished in late 1966, I believe, after a fire not long after passenger service ended.

4) The rails have been lifted in spots though Pequannock, but in the long run, that would not be a deal-breaker if restoration of passenger service is considered as the ROW and tracks would be rebuilt anyway. (Unlike reopening freight line, where slow speeds can be tolerated.)

5) The trestle over the Pompton River is in very bad shape. It has been damaged by several fires on the wooden track and a derailment or two that came in contract with the structure. Plates were welded to the ends of the trestle to prevent anyone crossing it.

6) Routing passenger service from the NYS&W tracks west of Pompton Junction down the Greenwood Lake -- which would be a much shorter commute for passengers upper Passaic and Sussex counties -- would require the restoration of the southwest connection between the GL and NYS&W, which crossed over the Pompton River. It was removed in the late 1950s, and the embankment can still be seen leading off the Greenwood Lake opposite Ber Plastics. However, the embankment on the NYS&W side was removed in the late 1980s for the mitigation pond for the construction of I-287. That would be a formidable environmental barrier to overcome.

7) For a few years Mountain View functioned similar to the Montclair University station. When passenger trains on the DL&W Boonton Line were diverted onto the Greenwood Lake beginning in 1963 (when the Boonton Line around Garrett Mountain was abandoned for the construction of I-80), the single-track Erie Mountain View station reconfigured so that the new wye to the Boonton Line split off from the GL east of the station, so that two tracks ran through the station: One to the GL to Wanaque and the other the Boonton Line west to Dover. This arrangement allowed for off-peak shuttle trains to be waiting to take GL passengers to Wanaque who transfered from Boonton Line trains across the platform. I would have to check my old timetables, but I think by the time service to Wanaque was abandoned in 1966, all the trains to that destination were shuttles, with no direct service between Wanaque and Hoboken.

8) In the late 80s and early 90s Passaic County and the state were considering building a road on the ROW west of the site of the Wanaque station from Ringwood Ave. near West Brook Road, reconnecting with Ringwood Ave. several miles south to alleviate traffic on Ringwood Ave. It was determined it would not make a big difference and in fact would create bottlenecks were the bypass connected with Ringwood Ave.

9) Pompton-Riverdale station still had an agent until the summer of 1970, four years after passenger serviced ended. Apparently there was still enough local freight business to justify the agent until he retired.

10) The Pompton Plains station was recently restored.
New bridge could probably be pretty cheap, if built stable for the old Pompton trestle. It seems like the most expensive barrier is a new southwestern connection, although I can't see it being that much to restore, it isn't very long. Just a new track connection and a 2nd bridge. Tracks would also need to be restored from Wanaque to Pompton Junction and through Pequannock, but there isn't that much in trouble. Its not the like entire cut-off which is 28 miles of new track, complete rehabs and new structures.

Also 1968:
http://www.unofficial.net/wanaque/middemo.jpg
  by SemperFidelis
 
The issue with the southwest connection is not price or engineering, rather it is a matter of environmental concern.

The ROW was cleared as part of the mitigation for the I-287 completion project, filling in the missing gap from Montville, NJ to Suffern, NY. As the I-287 project destroyed some sections of wetlands, replacement of those sections with newly created acreage was mandated by environmental laws to protect from worsening any flooding problems.

If the ROW were to be re-established, other wetlands would then need to be built to replace the replacement wetlands. The bridge idea might or might not be an acceptable solution to that problem.

I propose that we continue with NJ Transit's train of logic and run shuttles (diesel light rail?) from Wanaque to Mountain View, force the passengers to transfer to the diesel commuter train, and then force them to transfer again so that no one in Montclair gets too upset by the noise. Wanaque-NY Penn should be around 3.5 hours that way...
  by Roadgeek Adam
 
SemperFidelis wrote:The issue with the southwest connection is not price or engineering, rather it is a matter of environmental concern.

The ROW was cleared as part of the mitigation for the I-287 completion project, filling in the missing gap from Montville, NJ to Suffern, NY. As the I-287 project destroyed some sections of wetlands, replacement of those sections with newly created acreage was mandated by environmental laws to protect from worsening any flooding problems.

If the ROW were to be re-established, other wetlands would then need to be built to replace the replacement wetlands. The bridge idea might or might not be an acceptable solution to that problem.

I propose that we continue with NJ Transit's train of logic and run shuttles (diesel light rail?) from Wanaque to Mountain View, force the passengers to transfer to the diesel commuter train, and then force them to transfer again so that no one in Montclair gets too upset by the noise. Wanaque-NY Penn should be around 3.5 hours that way...
That would be murder for service of commuters. We could have a Pompton Junction station loop track in theory, let the train take the loop track at a different part of the site and enter PJ then continue on.
  by SemperFidelis
 
If we are to build a loop track, then I will change my proposal to include a massive, concrete station (with no parking) that the trains can pass through twice, once on the lower level and then again on the upper level after having traversed the loop...

Sarcasm aside, that loop idea probably would be acceptable but I would doubt there is room for more than a turn of very low radius:

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qv0n2y ... es%2C%20NJ

Judging by the aerials, a newer, shorter ROW for the SW connection might be more feasible. If we're going to build a tight loop, you might as well build a tight connection with a bridge.
  by Roadgeek Adam
 
SemperFidelis wrote:If we are to build a loop track, then I will change my proposal to include a massive, concrete station (with no parking) that the trains can pass through twice, once on the lower level and then again on the upper level after having traversed the loop...

Sarcasm aside, that loop idea probably would be acceptable but I would doubt there is room for more than a turn of very low radius:

http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=qv0n2y ... es%2C%20NJ

Judging by the aerials, a newer, shorter ROW for the SW connection might be more feasible. If we're going to build a tight loop, you might as well build a tight connection with a bridge.
Eh no :P However, we could make an L-shaped platform on one part of the station, with parking. The northern half of the L is the Wanaque Extension platform, the southern end of the platform is the Susquehanna Line platform. Makes it cheaper than 3 platforms with high-level, basically one doing both lines.

Your latter suggestion is exactly what I thought might work :P

EDIT: Grammatical failure of the grammar
  by SemperFidelis
 
Then you will get the credit for the idea when the line is reopened. By then you'll need to wake me from my wheelchair, parked firmly in front of a blaring television showing endless replays of "Jeopardy" and I'll have the nurse give you my helping of creamed corn in recognition of your foresight! :-)
  by Roadgeek Adam
 
SemperFidelis wrote:Then you will get the credit for the idea when the line is reopened. By then you'll need to wake me from my wheelchair, parked firmly in front of a blaring television showing endless replays of "Jeopardy" and I'll have the nurse give you my helping of creamed corn in recognition of your foresight! :-)
If Nj Transit considers it. I am sure they read this board, but not for taking design plans for service that might make sense :)

Also I doubt I know how old you are, but if by that point, I'm not going to be hand feeding you :P