Service via Mountain View to Wanaque?

Restoring commuter rail service to Wanaque is a great idea, in theory. In reality, unfortunately, it will never happen. As has already been posted there are ROW issues from Pompton Jct. north to Wanaque. Even if the ROW and environmental issues could be satisfactorily resolved there are other issues that would probably prevent service from ever being restored. That's too bad because upper Passaic County is in dire need of traffic relief. While it doesn't have the same traffic volume as I-80, Route 15, or Route 23 Ringwood Avenue/Passaic County Route 511 has become a nightmare every morning and evening rush hour. I've been living in Wanaque since 1973 and I work for the town. As an example when I finish a midnight shift at 8am it usually takes me between 15 to 20 minutes to get from borough hall to my house in the south end of town. I can add another 5-10 minutes to that if it's raining or snowing.

Idiot Railfan wrote:

8) In the late 80s and early 90s Passaic County and the state were considering building a road on the ROW west of the site of the Wanaque station from Ringwood Ave. near West Brook Road, reconnecting with Ringwood Ave. several miles south to alleviate traffic on Ringwood Ave. It was determined it would not make a big difference and in fact would create bottlenecks were the bypass connected with Ringwood Ave.

I'm not so sure that that statement is entirely true. I think it was the NIMBY's who killed the Ringwood Avenue/Rt. 511 bypass alternates far more than any 'official' research did. Of course there were environmental and ROW issues but I feel that the NIMBY's were the biggest reason why the bypass wasn't built. They wanted traffic relief but they didn't want any new construction in town to accomodate it. And that all occured before I-287 was even opened through to Mahwah. Before I-287 opened all the traffic from upper Passaic County would either come south to Skyline Drive in Ringwood to get to Route 208 or continue south through Wanaque on their way to Riverdale in order to get to Route 23. Since I-287 opened there has no been no relief, traffic has only increased on Ringwood Avenue.

While restoring rail service to Wanaque would be a much needed improvement I don't think it would reduce the traffic load on Ringwood Avenue. Since Wanaque would be the start/end of the line there would need to be a station big enough to handle the riders from the entire upper Passaic County area. By necessity that means a large parking lot for the commuters. That means that we'd still see a lot of traffic during the morning and evening rushes. Making the end of the line at Riverdale/Pompton Lakes or Pompton Plains/Pequannock woudn't benefit Wanaque traffic-wise either. Not much relief in either of those scenarios. Bypass road(s) will probably never be built so the only other option I can see would be via the NJT buses that already run through Wanaque. The buses currently run from Warwick, NY into NYC via the Lincoln Tunnel. However instead of just one bus every hour or so coming through town there would need to be a bus station where the buses could run more frequently. That would also require a large parking lot, again canceling out the benefit of traffic reduction.

It's a shame that back in 1966 no one had the foresight to see what was coming for this area.

Yes, one of the questions that always comes up with restoring passenger service, is just how many cars will be replaced. Route 23 south from Sussex County is a parking lot in the morning. Anecdotally, you would think putting trains on the tracks that parallel the highway would attract commuters. But if the trains aren't going where the people work, they are going to stay in their cars. I don't know if a study has been done to determine how many of the commuters on Route 23 are eventually bound for New York or Newark, by boarding a train in, say, Wayne. Those people would benefit. Problem is if there are too many stops, they'll continue to drive.

Idiot Railfan wrote:

Yes, one of the questions that always comes up with restoring passenger service, is just how many cars will be replaced.

Good point, IR. When I'm sitting in my car waiting to get home from work each morning I sometimes think about how much restored rail service would help this area. Then I wonder if all these commuters on Ringwood Avenue are actually going somewhere that can be accessed by rail. You're right, if there are too many stops, or if rail makes the commute tougher in any way, people are going to stay in their cars.

As aggravating as the morning rush hour in Wanaque is for me while I'm trying to get home from my job I'm just happy that I don't have to sit in it in the evenings as well.

I would hate to see yet another stop on the Boonton Line, but why on earth is there not a railroad stop at the Willowbrook Mall? It has to be one of the biggest traffic generators in Passaic County. To the system it would add a commuting destination outside of metro NY. A few thousand people must work there.

I know the service on the Boonton Line isn't geared at all for commuting/shopping at the mall and to make it so would probably be very hard, but the rail line passes within a stone's throw of the outer portions of the complex. It just seems like it would at least make a nice park-n-ride, no?

SemperFidelis wrote:I would hate to see yet another stop on the Boonton Line, but why on earth is there not a railroad stop at the Willowbrook Mall? It has to be one of the biggest traffic generators in Passaic County. To the system it would add a commuting destination outside of metro NY. A few thousand people must work there.

I know the service on the Boonton Line isn't geared at all for commuting/shopping at the mall and to make it so would probably be very hard, but the rail line passes within a stone's throw of the outer portions of the complex. It just seems like it would at least make a nice park-n-ride, no?

Ironically Singac Station would have served the purpose. Also I believe they're using Wayne Route 23 to help that purpose. We could rebuild Singac, but I could bet you most of the money to my name (little) that they would not name it that

If we get electrification to Mountain View, I would think that that point we could warrant good commuter service.

Service between Mountain View and Wanaque-Midvale would never have been discontinued if the Boonton Line had not been severed between Paterson and Totowa. When the Boonton Line was combined with the Greenwood Lake Branch service North of Mountain View on the Greenwood Lake Line was reduced to 2 thru trains to Hoboken one each way and than 4 shuttles 2 each way. Commuters began driving to Mountain View Station to take advantage of the better train service offered there. Hense when the state of New Jersey did a study of the service north of Mountain View in 1965-1966 patronage on the Greenwood Lake north of Mountain View was not high enough and the State of New Jersey decided it could be cut.

Howard

Idiot Railfan wrote:...
6) Routing passenger service from the NYS&W tracks west of Pompton Junction down the Greenwood Lake -- which would be a much shorter commute for passengers upper Passaic and Sussex counties --

My $0.02 is that the Montclair Line routing would be shorter, but only by 2.7 miles - roughly the distance from the bumping blocks in Hoboken to West End.

If passenger service were ever restored on the NYS&W, Wanaque passengers could easily drive along Ringwood Avenue to Pompton Lakes.

And even though Montclair is 2.7 miles shorter, we have to remember that Montclair has a station every few thousand feet to ensure NJ Transit lives up to its reputation in slowness.

SemperFidelis wrote:And even though Montclair is 2.7 miles shorter, we have to remember that Montclair has a station every few thousand feet to ensure NJ Transit lives up to its reputation in slowness.

I totally agree.
Of course, every time I pass the ROW north of Pompton Junction, I think about restoring service as well. The railfan in me loves the idea, but the tax payer in me dislikes it.

Passaic River Rat wrote:

If passenger service were ever restored on the NYS&W, Wanaque passengers could easily drive along Ringwood Avenue to Pompton Lakes.

Easily drive along Ringwood Avenue? I don't think so. Ever since I-287 opened with an exit in the Haskell section of Wanaque Ringwood Avenue has become a parking lot during the morning and evening rush hours. As I've posted here previously I have lived in Wanaque since 1973 and have worked for Wanaque for the last 20 years. I've seen Ringwood Avenue become a linear parking lot, especially in the last 10-15 years. When I finish a midnight shift and have to drive the 2 miles home to my house in Haskell I can count on an average 10-15 minutes to go those 2 miles. That's when the road is dry and the weather is good. If it's raining, snowing, or Skyline Drive in Ringwood is closed (which happens frequently enough in the winter months), I can add another 5-10 minutes to my driving time. Of course there are days when I can be home in under 5 minutes but they are few and far between.

If rail service were to ever happen I don't know how many commuters would take advantage of the new service so it is impossible to know what the traffic impact on Ringwood Avenue would be...but I can positively say that it would only make a bad situation even worse. The only viable solution would be to institute rail service along with another road(s) to help alleviate the bottleneck that Ringwood Avenue has become.

I do agree with your statement:

Of course, every time I pass the ROW north of Pompton Junction, I think about restoring service as well. The railfan in me loves the idea, but the tax payer in me dislikes it.

Between taxes, NIMBY's, and countless other reasons, we can only wish for this to happen.

Ringwood Ave. really is a nightmare at anytime near the standard rush hours.

Passaic River Rat wrote:

Idiot Railfan wrote:...
6) Routing passenger service from the NYS&W tracks west of Pompton Junction down the Greenwood Lake -- which would be a much shorter commute for passengers upper Passaic and Sussex counties --

My $0.02 is that the Montclair Line routing would be shorter, but only by 2.7 miles - roughly the distance from the bumping blocks in Hoboken to West End.

If passenger service were ever restored on the NYS&W, Wanaque passengers could easily drive along Ringwood Avenue to Pompton Lakes.

Mountain View -> Wayne Route 23 -> Montclair State University -> Bay Street -> Newark Broad Street express maybe? A train from Butler or Wanaque doesn't need to make every stop in Montclair of the 6.

I also very much disagree with the Pompton Lakes station being a good catch all Wanaque/Haskell drivers situation. If the Montclair-Wayne alignment is a bit faster, wouldn't it be a waste to take a line that takes long (i.e. all the way to Hawthorne then on the Main Line itself?) If that was the situation, I'd as a driver be more inclined to 1) drive to Butler, 2) drive to Pompton-Riverdale, 3) Demand a Wanaque Extension for Haskell & Wanaque (pipe dream Ringwood in there) or 4) Just drive to my destination.

Roadgeek Adam wrote:Mountain View -> Wayne Route 23 -> Montclair State University -> Bay Street -> Newark Broad Street express maybe? A train from Butler or Wanaque doesn't need to make every stop in Montclair of the 6.

I also very much disagree with the Pompton Lakes station being a good catch all Wanaque/Haskell drivers situation. If the Montclair-Wayne alignment is a bit faster, wouldn't it be a waste to take a line that takes long (i.e. all the way to Hawthorne then on the Main Line itself?) If that was the situation, I'd as a driver be more inclined to 1) drive to Butler, 2) drive to Pompton-Riverdale, 3) Demand a Wanaque Extension for Haskell & Wanaque (pipe dream Ringwood in there) or 4) Just drive to my destination.

You guys have good points about RIngwood Ave. "Easy" was not the proper word. But you have to admit, driving a few miles on Ringwood Ave and getting on a train seems better than driving on Ringwood Ave and continue driving to a destination during rush hour here in northern New Jersey. Where does one go after Ringwood Avenue? Route 23? That sucks. Route 287 south? The interchange at I-80 stinks. Route 208 South? Always jams up around Hawthorne.

My railfan fantasy is to rebuild the line to Ringwood Junction, then continue up the Peter's Mine Branch with designs of hauling toxic soil from the old Ford dump site. Purely unrealistic, but fun to imagine.

Passaic River Rat wrote:

But you have to admit, driving a few miles on Ringwood Ave and getting on a train seems better than driving on Ringwood Ave and continue driving to a destination during rush hour here in northern New Jersey.

That's a point that can't be argued with.

My railfan fantasy is to rebuild the line to Ringwood Junction, then continue up the Peter's Mine Branch with designs of hauling toxic soil from the old Ford dump site. Purely unrealistic, but fun to imagine.

It is fun to think about. I've taken that scenario one step further with my N-scale layout where I've combined real-life history with my own railfan fantasy. Check it out at: http://www.wanaquevalleyrailroad.com/home

HSSRAIL wrote:Service between Mountain View and Wanaque-Midvale would never have been discontinued if the Boonton Line had not been severed between Paterson and Totowa. When the Boonton Line was combined with the Greenwood Lake Branch service North of Mountain View on the Greenwood Lake Line was reduced to 2 thru trains to Hoboken one each way and than 4 shuttles 2 each way. Commuters began driving to Mountain View Station to take advantage of the better train service offered there. Hense when the state of New Jersey did a study of the service north of Mountain View in 1965-1966 patronage on the Greenwood Lake north of Mountain View was not high enough and the State of New Jersey decided it could be cut.

Howard

It's amusing to note how at one time service at Mountain View would have been considered superior to any alternative.

The largest town along this old line is Pompton Lakes, which would be better served by the proposed (now shelved) NYS&W restoration via Hawthorne.