SEPTA train bathrooms

gardendance wrote:I'd assume they did bathroom maintenance the same place they did any other maintenance. However I'm pretty sure the Silverliner 2 toilets were the old fashioned kind that discharged to the tracks, so the only daily maintenance would have been to refill the water and restock the paper and soap.

I'm not sure what rules apply to commuter lines but IIRC, FRA regulations forbid Amtrak from using dry hoppers with track discharge. Everything has to be held and emptied into a "sanitary facility".

...the industry nickname is honey wagon.

My suspicion is that PRESENCE of on-train lavatories is something that has not been regulated for commuter trains, but regulations describe the details regarding them if the trains are so equipped. I would also suppose that if one train had them, then all must. That can be easy for the push-pull operators; for only the fleet's cab cars (usually about one-fifth of the fleet) need be so equipped, since one is used in every train.

But on SEPTA with emus in ones, twos, and more wandering all over the system, the number equipped with lavatories would have to include all single cars, plus one in each married pair. That would be many lavatories to maintain (assuming they can't keep track of what cars are in each consist).

And as I observed earlier, SEPTA is cheap because that's what the pols want of it.

SEPTA has no lavatory servicing facilities.

More funding would fix all of this, but that's another story all together. If SEPTA were a real railroad more people would ride.

- A

One senior I know, who lives in Doylestown, was interested in riding the train to Philly until I told him there were no lavatories on the trains.

To continue on the Center City restroom saga, I tried to get into the Aramark tower on Saturday. No luck! The security guard wouldn't let me upstairs unless I had a document proving I had an appointment with one of the associates.

No fear, though: I found a great bathroom location by Market East. Take the escalator up to the Headhouse and make a sharp left, follow the Mariott skyway over to the main hotel (not the luxury tower). Follow the signs to the restrooms. The floor is full of conference rooms, not hotel rooms, so it's largely unstaffed.

I too know of several seniors who intended to take the train and then didn't when they learned there were no bathrooms on board.

I agree that public restrooms are pretty horrible, especially in transit stations. Suburban would ALWAYS have at least one (usually several) homeless in it washing themselves (feet included) in the sinks or just loitering and begging. 30th street is not much better.

However, I would think it would be different on a train seeing as you need to pay a fare to be on the train in the first place and the fact that a conductor would be aware of excessive occupation when walking the train, or would be complained to by a rider who wanted to use it but couldn't. I just don't think homeless is an issue in general on Regional Rail. While it's common to see homeless on a bus or more often the subway due to the cheap fare (and it being unattended on the subway) I honestly can't remember there being any overtly homeless on a regional rail train. A few thugs, lowlifes and crazies here and there but not homeless.

delvyrails wrote:But on SEPTA with emus in ones, twos, and more wandering all over the system, the number equipped with lavatories would have to include all single cars, plus one in each married pair. That would be many lavatories to maintain (assuming they can't keep track of what cars are in each consist).

NJT's single Arrows aren't lavatory-equipped.

Except for PJ&B, NJT runs few short consists. SEPTA runs many.

delvyrails wrote:Except for PJ&B, NJT runs few short consists. SEPTA runs many.

Many 3 and 4 car MU sets run out of Hoboken Terminal. There is more to NJT then the NEC.

The off-peak Gladstone electrics are usually 3-car Arrows. 3-car (some 2-car) diesels are also found on the Hoboken Division, such as the WORM shuttles, and off-peak Main/Bergen trains.

Ken S. wrote:

delvyrails wrote:Except for PJ&B, NJT runs few short consists. SEPTA runs many.

Many 3 and 4 car MU sets run out of Hoboken Terminal. There is more to NJT then the NEC.

R36 Combine Coach wrote:The off-peak Gladstone electrics are usually 3-car Arrows. 3-car (some 2-car) diesels are also found on the Hoboken Division, such as the WORM shuttles, and off-peak Main/Bergen trains.

Yes, midday M&E/Gladstone/M-B trains out of Hoboken are usually 3 or 4 cars, but unless NJT uses 3 or 4 singles (not usual practice since the power-to-weight ratio of a single is not as good as a double) there's still at least one bathroom. It's not like NJT really ever runs singles as singles, with the exception of the Dinky. And if you can't hold it on the Dinky, see your doctor.

Similarly with the short off-peak diesels (which, by the way, I can't remember the last time insaw anything less that three cars on the PVL, NJT's least used line). They all have a cab car, and all cab cars have a bathroom.

So delvy's point about NJT not likely being in a situation where a train would be without at least one bathroom is true, even when the lesser used lines of the Hoboken division are accounted for.

Recently on the R7 was a lonely pair, and the next train was 2 older units and a S4 single. That being said, i've seen reverse peak and off peak push/pull trains, and i've seen a part reverse part equipment move train leave on track 5 after a 5 car train and a 4 car train coupled up (i like the air noise from this ).

As far as bathrooms, they should get the facilities to service the restroom equipped cars, and then get the cars so more people ride and be done with it. I dunno how many times i've all most missed a train to levittown because i had to ease nature after a standing room only trip from newark upstairs vs on the next train.

- A

septadude wrote:Let's not forget some (all?) Silverliner IIs had bathrooms and SEPTA removed them to become crew closets.

To be precise, all the Silverliner III's, and the 201-219 series of Silverliner II's at one time had bathrooms. All were inoperable by the time the commuter tunnel opened in 1984 and all were removed when most of those cars got overhauled (only some of the 200-series Silverliner II's did not get the general overhaul in 1988-1989). Those that still had restrooms had the equipment removed like the rest of the 201-219 group and are used to store destination signs and sometimes crew members will put their belongings there. In the case of 232-239, the bathroom enclosure was completely removed and extra luggage racks were added, signifying their former steady assignments to the Airport Line.

Going up and down the Northeast, Boston's MBTA is the only other agency where most of the fleet is NOT restroom-equipped. Currently, only their 900-series Kawasaki bilevels (20+ cars, IIRC) and their 1500 and 500-series MBB cars (67 cars including any now out of service) are restroom-equipped. And that is a very small percentage of the fleet, my friends. There are plenty of trains up there running without either an MBB or 900-series car in them, and the MBB's are close to retirement.

ex Budd man wrote:One of the reasons that all rail lines end at Suburban Station is to skirt the rule mandating toilet facilities on board Septa trains. If the run is continous toilets are required due to the overall length (e.g. Doylestown to Downingtown) of travel between end points. By terminating at Suburban, changing destination signs, and continuing on the rule is circumvented.

But the through trains do not terminate, nor change signs; they start with their final destination signs in place (except for the Airport Line trains, which signage is covered by division notice to put Center City signs in the holders, and then change them to their final destination before arriving in Center City. Each individual Regional Rail line is considered a separate line by SEPTA tariff number, with distance measured from Suburban Station. And even the longest continuous SEPTA run is much less than 100 miles, so the rule mandating toilet facilities doesn't even come into play.

It all comes down to maintenance and money. SEPTA has no facilities to service on-board restrooms, nor do they want to incur the cost of maintenance. Only three or four of the Bombardier cab cars have working restrooms (2402, 2404, 2406 being three of them IIRC) and they were only installed to accomodate riders of the annual "SEPTA Goes To Harrisburg To Beg For Money" charters back in the 90's. They are kept locked during regular revenue service. I would not be surprised if the bathrooms are still in place on Comet cab cars 2460 and 2461, but just locked.

I believe it would take some kind of legal action to force SEPTA to design restrooms onto one car of each Silverliner IV pair when that fleet goes out to design. But bear in mind that because of ADA regulations, it would likely eat up another 12 seats, and force SEPTA to go back to the dreaded 3-2 configuration to make up the difference in seating capacity.

Silverliner II wrote:

septadude wrote:Let's not forget some (all?) Silverliner IIs had bathrooms and SEPTA removed them to become crew closets.

Going up and down the Northeast, Boston's MBTA is the only other agency where most of the fleet is NOT restroom-equipped. Currently, only their 900-series Kawasaki bilevels (20+ cars, IIRC) and their 1500 and 500-series MBB cars (67 cars including any now out of service) are restroom-equipped. And that is a very small percentage of the fleet, my friends. There are plenty of trains up there running without either an MBB or 900-series car in them, and the MBB's are close to retirement.

It's a small percentage, but the vast majority of trains here (MBTA) do have a restroom car. The general practice is to have at least one car per train. On the northside lines it's usually done by having one MBB coach or cab car on head end behind the locomotive, although a few MBB cabs do lead on the northside. The southside gets more complicated with the 900-series Kawasakis and the MBB cabs leading. Also, there's no "stay in your car" restrictions, so you're free to walk to the car with the restroom if you sit elsewhere (although off-peak you may have to ask the crew to go into an out of service car to get to it). Once you get there, whether or not you want to use it is dicey, as I'm sure most commuter road restrooms are.

The MBB's are in pretty rough shape (wanna make a Silverliner look good - ride one of these babies, especially in the winter!), but some (47) of the Rotem bilevels on order are to be potty-equipped, to support the 33 Kawasakis so equipped. That gives us 80 restroom cars, and although I don't know the total number of trainsets needed to cover north and south, that should be enough for the one-per-train rule.

there have been times when i had to get off at suburban or take a later train because i had to go to the bathroom. I was septa would put in bathroom and also i hate having to hold it.