SEPTA NJT COOPERATION idea

Obviously NJT's main priority is to build the new tunnel into Manhattan for additional service, but that additional service into Manhattan has increased the possibility of other projects such as the restoration of the Lackawanna Cutoff and the West Trenton line service.

For those who don't know the West Trenton line plan costs ~$220 million and is based on the idea of a single track with sidings that would restore service between NJT's Raritan Valley Line and the SEPTA terminus in West Trenton. Like the rest of the RVL the line would not be electrified. But as I have read on this site, there have been NJT engineering studies of the idea of electrifying the line to Raritan and West Trenton and the logistics are all possible, although the NS portion of the ROW between Aldene and the NEC is under question, but this seems doable also.

So here's the idea. What if SEPTA and NJT were to form a cooperation agreement with cross subsidies where appropriate, etc and NJT were to restore rush hour service on its West Trenton line all the way to Philadelphia, but instead of it being between from Reading Terminal and Jersey City/Newark, it could be from Paoli to Penn Station. Using NJT double-decker cars, which have bathrooms and are quite comfortable, and the service run limited inside PA and would not replace the R5 or R3 services, but merely augment them (the schedules would have to be aligned so that they weren't duplicative).

I know there is a certain Keystone that takes this route already, but the NJT train would be more of a local train.

Its a long trip, deep inside PA territory, but NJT trains offer bathrooms and NJT is running trains to New Haven for these football games, and there is precedent for this kind of service before. SEPTA wins because there is less pressure for more rolling stock. Residents along this extended line win because they have on seat service options to Penn Station, Philadelphia and its western suburbs. I am also wondering whether the offering of a single seat service would increase ridership on connection based services as well. There are a lot of people in the northeastern suburbs of NYC (who live near the West Trenton line) who presently drive to Trenton to take the NJT train to NYC. There are also many people along the West Trenton line in New Jersey who work in Philadelphia. This kind of service could really change their lives and reduce the need to commute by automobile.

Another idea, raised here before, is the idea of extending NJT "clocker" service to Philadelphia. This seems line a fine idea as well. So the issue becomes a political one of figuring out a way to hash out an agreement between NJT and SEPTA, which would allow SEPTA to dedicate more of its resources to its other regional rail lines and NJT would gain subsidies and both states and their residents would gain from fewer cars on the roads.

Will never happen on a regular basis, but there may be exceptions. Politically, it will never work. The type of service you are talking about would be under Amtrak jurisdiction. I don't see electrification happening on the NJT West Trenton line with the Dual-Mode locos coming. At the same time, I don't see Amtrak tying up an electric and diesel locomotives to handle one train from Harrisburg to New York via West Trenton, although the idea is rather entertaining.

But, at the same time, a third express track may be needed on the SEPTA trunk between Jenkintown and Wayne Junction to allow extra express service, and that simply will never happen.

I totally agree it is outside of today's realm of possibility, but organizations like RPA are routinely proposing ideas that fall outside this realm. The idea of connecting Penn Station and Grand Central Terminal is one, so I am not too concerned about this problem, because when circumstances change, things change politically. So if gas goes up to $4-5 gallon, then people will use more trains, SEPTA will be in a bind and options previously unthinkable, will become possible. But that being said, you're right, it is a long shot.

Amtrak is controlled by the federal government, so if senators from NJ and PA support this idea, Amtrak will be forced to bend.

The dual mode locomotives could be used for the route I am describing and if the line becomes popular enough, then the West Trenton/RVL could be electrified. I always saw the dual modes as a stopgap measure prior to electrification--especially with the cut-off out there and Erie mainline service.

The idea that PA would provide a subsidy to NJT for service that SEPTA already provides I think would be the hardest to swallow, but perhaps there are ways to get around this.

Another option, probably equally difficult, but perhaps politically more palatable to start out would be to provide NJT clocker service along the NEC to Philadelphia and then on to Reading using the dual mode locomotives. Sen. Spector has been advocating service from Philadelphia to reading and this could be a way to do it without any investment in diesel technology, building a connection to the cynwyd line or electrification of the reading line west of norristown. Meanwhile, single-seat commuter service is provided between NYC and Philadelphia. Again, Amtrak may object, but the Senate approves the appropriation bills.

Also. along the now abandoned West Trenton line is the Trenton-Mercer airport (steps away from the tracks is the terminal). There was an RPA survey on airport delays released today talking about the creation of a new airport to serve the NYC area at Stewart. The need to expand into this airport could provide the catalyst for through rail service.

You are right about the gas problem. However, by the time it reaches that point it will already be too late. Do you recall the last time that gas was at $4 per gallon last summer? There was an incredible increase in demand, but not enough supply in available seats and equipment to meet it. Instead of scrapping the Comet 1s, do you remember NJT sold them to various agencies around the country? This even applies to SEPTA who now runs 8 former NJT comet cars daily on the Great Valley Flyer, and allowed all the other bomber sets to be extended by one car only. That's only additional seats on 16 trains daily! Yet, the trains were still crowded to capacity and no new expansion projects or additional services were added.

In terms of the dual modes, NJT has a few lines that are not electrified, and has no intention of electrifying because of the high capital cost. For instance, the North Jersey Coast Line between Long Branch and Bay Head is still not electrified because of cost. Longer lines on the NJT system are limited to transfers to NYC-bound trains at Secaucus, Newark, or to a ferry or PATH at Hoboken. They cannot enter the tunnels. The dual-modes are not a stop-gap measure to address the issue of diesels in the New York tunnels until electrification can be completed. NJT has no intention of electrifying those lines that use diesels, and instead decided on allowing a diesel locomotive to use electric in the tunnels.

On the other hand, SEPTA has no intention of instituting any diesel train service because of the Center City tunnel. We have been over this many many times before. Not to mention that I don't think that a dual mode pulling a train of heavy multilevels will have an easy time getting up the grade to the Reading Viaduct. Electric is the only option for SEPTA at this point, and SEPTA won't consider anything else. The downside to that is that, like I said before, electrification requires a substantial capital cost. The Federal New Starts program has strict short-term (in the sense that the lifetime of an electrified railroad is 100+ years) cost-benefit goals that need to be met to qualify. Over that short term, the costs would not be worth the benefit, but if looked at over the lifetime of the railroad (an undetermined lifetime with ridership greatly affected by unforeseen social, political, and economic factors), the costs would be well worth it, even with the most pessimistic views. Instead, the current political landscape will only allow for diesel light rail, such as the RiverLINE or the upcoming PATCO extension to Glassboro. Basically, no new SEPTA rail service for a long time. Although, it will be interesting to see what happens with the R6 extension to Reading, which is leaning toward full electrification.

Also, why would PA provide a subsidy to NJT for a redundant service that they already pay a subsidy to Amtrak for (in the form of the Keystone trains)? Where would your proposed clocker service stop in Pennsylvania, and based on what methodology?

the clockers were sacrificed for midtown direct service no? secondly, it doesn't offer that much value. express service could be offered from paoli via the extant Pittsburgh subway. lastly, a far cheaper solution would be to pay Amtrak to lower it's fares on the Keystone.

Suburban Station wrote:the clockers were sacrificed for midtown direct service no? secondly, it doesn't offer that much value. express service could be offered from paoli via the extant Pittsburgh subway. lastly, a far cheaper solution would be to pay Amtrak to lower it's fares on the Keystone.

Maybe I am missing something, but assuming electrification of the RVL to West Trenton, wouldn't it be the same cost or cheaper to have NJT run trains to Philadelphia (even to terminate at 30 street or Airport) as to have Septa and NJT run two trains? Moreover, there would be increased ridership in both directions because there would be people who would not be willing to transfer but would be willing to take a single seat ride.

FRN9 wrote:Maybe I am missing something, but assuming electrification of the RVL to West Trenton, wouldn't it be the same cost or cheaper to have NJT run trains to Philadelphia (even to terminate at 30 street or Airport) as to have Septa and NJT run two trains?

Not necessarily. There are overhead costs associated with such a longer run, like crew bases and training. Another thing is it ties up a lot of equipment, say for a reverse-peak run on the SEPTA side that has to carry a peak load in NJ.

FRN9 wrote:

Suburban Station wrote:the clockers were sacrificed for midtown direct service no? secondly, it doesn't offer that much value. express service could be offered from paoli via the extant Pittsburgh subway. lastly, a far cheaper solution would be to pay Amtrak to lower it's fares on the Keystone.

Maybe I am missing something, but assuming electrification of the RVL to West Trenton, wouldn't it be the same cost or cheaper to have NJT run trains to Philadelphia (even to terminate at 30 street or Airport) as to have Septa and NJT run two trains? Moreover, there would be increased ridership in both directions because there would be people who would not be willing to transfer but would be willing to take a single seat ride.

I don't see how, it will require two sets of crews that amtrak only needs one for, in addition to any size constraints. If NJT needs to work with any other agency it's Metro North. there's already a one seat ride, it's just priced wrong

If NJT were to run through-Philadelphia trains anywhere, it would be between West Trenton and Atlantic City. It would serve both the NJT West Trenton Line and the Atlantic City Line with SEPTA West Trenton in between. At most, maybe four trains: 1 peak hour train in each direction twice a day. Crew rotations can happen at West Trenton and 30th Street or Suburban Stations. That's the most logical and likely cross-agency cooperation to happen, but is still a slim chance.

Routing through service from Paoli to NYP via West Trenton is nothing but catering to a select few. Even from Center City, even if electrified, how would that routing compare in transit time compared to the 4-tracked NEC???

If you're going to have inter-agency cooperation, you let NJT run down the NEC to 30th Street for Clocker Service. (Where are you going to fit more trains at the airport?) They do not offer local service within PA. Using limited stops (say Levittown, Cornwells Heights, Torresdale, Holmesburg Jct.), it should discharge only going to 30th, pickup only going to Trenton/NYP. Then within NJ, Trenton, Hamilton, PJ, New Brunswick, express to Newark. (Local service originates/terminates at Jersey Ave.) Bottom line, there is no reason to spend hundreds of millions of dollars to cater to a few super-commuters to NYC. It's not because it's NYC, but rather the cost of the project per projected ridership.

If Amtrak wants to explore the idea of having an electrified alternate route to the NEC through central Jersey, then by all means, they should be the ones running the wires to West Trenton.

If Septa wants to do a serious expansion, it's the R6 to Reading. Electrified, of course.

cpontani wrote: If Septa wants to do a serious expansion, it's the R6 to Reading. Electrified, of course.

exactly, there are way too many other needs that can't be solved by Amtrak adding a few cars to its trains and lowering its prices.

Instead of dropping $200 million into the Reading line east of West Trenton, drop $30 million into the Trenton Cutoff and Trenton station. Re-electrify, build a yard bypass, and a new flyover/connection between the Cutoff and the West Trenton line at Woodbourne.

Then run NJT (or Amtrak for that matter) from Trenton to Jenkintown via the cutoff and the West Trenton branch.

Trenton is a bottleneck, but a run through probably won't make it worse -- because the trains already run through and out the Trenton Cutoff to the yard in Morrisville.

The schedule might go something like this:

6:30 am leave Suburban Station
7:00 am leave Jenkintown (you could be running through from Philadelphia or Lansdale, it doesn't really matter)
7:29 am leave Trenton
8:40 am arrive Penn Station (NJT already operates this express service that takes 71 minutes from Trenton to NYP).

Total travel time from Philly via the "back road" would somewhere around 2:10 +/-. But this schedule isn't really about Suburban Station -- it is about direct service from Temple, Jenkintown, Fern Rock, Lansdale, etc. In other words, places that are nowhere near 30th St. Station today. For those places, this will be a much faster way to get to New York than exists today, and at very little cost. While there is some cost in terms of equipment availability, I suspect that could be solved. Existing morning express trains are already heavily loaded by the time they leave Trenton. There is a large travel market to New York, so services like this are justified.

It would be great if NJ Transit could offer some sort of express service between West Trenton and Jenkintown or Fern Rock, making limited stops along Septa's R3 line. One problem would be parking for commuters heading to New York and North Jersey, Septa's parking lots are almost at capacity now, don't think they could handle many reverse commuters going north. It would be a cheaper alternative to Amtrak from 30TH Street Station.

Another option would be to use the ex-Pennsy Trenton Cut-Off, out to King of Prussia. No stations along this line, but plenty of places to build. It also helps that this line runs along the PA turnpike which is a parking lot every morning. Conrail built a connection between these two lines so that won't be a problem.

dreese_us wrote:It would be great if NJ Transit could offer some sort of express service between West Trenton and Jenkintown or Fern Rock, making limited stops along Septa's R3 line. One problem would be parking for commuters heading to New York and North Jersey, Septa's parking lots are almost at capacity now, don't think they could handle many reverse commuters going north. It would be a cheaper alternative to Amtrak from 30TH Street Station.

Another option would be to use the ex-Pennsy Trenton Cut-Off, out to King of Prussia. No stations along this line, but plenty of places to build. It also helps that this line runs along the PA turnpike which is a parking lot every morning. Conrail built a connection between these two lines so that won't be a problem.

There is always the plan for SEPTA to build a parking garage at Jenkintown, which should relieve some of the current parking stress. I personally would like to see NJT/SEPTA buy up some land (but where??) for a joint connection running via West Trenton.

Another pipe dream; the CSX Trenton Line. If there was such a demand, I could see NJT/SEPTA chipping in for restoration of the double track, plus a restored connection at ZOO. Allow NJT's RVL trains to continue down into Philly using the CSX line, and right into 30th Street.

Of course this doesn't allow for Jenkintown & surrounding area residents to take advantage of this (atleast via Jenkintown Station). The only issue with running any type of additional service (be it NJT or SEPTA!) via Jenkintown/Fern Rock is the lack of additional capacity on the SEPTA Main Line. AFAIK, the line is nearing capacity during rush hour, primarily because it's only two tracks from Wayne and above. It's a shame there is no wye between the Newtown Branch (CSX Trenton line and SEPTA Fox Chase line) and the Main line at Newtown Junction, because if so I would recommend trains coming into Fern Rock's 0 track for connection to in/outbound trains, NJT trains, and the Subway.