SEPTA NJT COOPERATION idea

Suburban Station wrote:

MikeBPRR wrote: I agree with you, but there wouldn't be much a point in combining them unless in doing so, you provide for free transfers. That won't happen because both agencies would lose a lot of money. The DRPA probably would probably stand to lose a lot of money if everyone payed, at most, $2 for a free transfer from the BSL or MFSE to a New Jersey-bound train. All that money would go to SEPTA. Think of paying the separate fare as the equivalent of paying a bridge toll; certainly the DRPA wouldn't want people to cross their bridges without paying a toll. Conversely, I bet SEPTA would stand to lose a lot of money without people paying for a transfer.

that's why they should be run as one system, perhaps once the new fare system is in place they will be able to track where peopel get on/off like WMATA.

Like I said, it's a good idea, but I feel that it would be fraught with complications, such as the DRPA making SEPTA rent out the bridge. Not a good idea at this time, especially when there's a possibility SEPTA will take a huge hit to its capital budget because electric prices are set to be uncapped.

Suburban Station wrote:

MikeBPRR wrote: I've always thought that SEPTA should buy the ACL, then restore service on the Mount Holly branch, and run it in conjunction with the SEPTA we know now in the way that MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR. Call it the South Jersey railroad.

not a bad idea, though I doubt SEPTA wants to be involved with Atlantic city. it'll be lights out once table games open in Philly (actually, I think North Philly station would have been the perfect place for a casino, 70 minutes from NYC).

I don't see AC going dark completely. South Philly is far tougher to access for out of towners than Atlantic City. You have a jitney waiting for you at the Atlantic City terminal. But South Philly isn't exactly close to 30th Street. And besides, who in their right mind would go to South Philly to gamble when in Atlantic City, you have a beach, sun, sand, and the cheap gas of New Jersey? Throw in a few beach-goers, and you still have a market. With that said, even if it does go dark, you could always make the ACL the equivalent of one of the regional rail lines. It kind of seems like they're already doing that with building a RiverLine transfer at Pennsauken and a new Woodcrest station when there's already the PATCO station. It would make a good alternative to PATCO for anyone trying to get to Center City West or University City.

MikeBPRR wrote: Like I said, it's a good idea, but I feel that it would be fraught with complications, such as the DRPA making SEPTA rent out the bridge. Not a good idea at this time, especially when there's a possibility SEPTA will take a huge hit to its capital budget because electric prices are set to be uncapped.

I would think that's the operating budget. everything is complicated but the people deserve it.

Suburban Station wrote: I don't see AC going dark completely. South Philly is far tougher to access for out of towners than Atlantic City. You have a jitney waiting for you at the Atlantic City terminal. But South Philly isn't exactly close to 30th Street. And besides, who in their right mind would go to South Philly to gamble when in Atlantic City, you have a beach, sun, sand, and the cheap gas of New Jersey? Throw in a few beach-goers, and you still have a market. With that said, even if it does go dark, you could always make the ACL the equivalent of one of the regional rail lines. It kind of seems like they're already doing that with building a RiverLine transfer at Pennsauken and a new Woodcrest station when there's already the PATCO station. It would make a good alternative to PATCO for anyone trying to get to Center City West or University City.

it's going tank, it's already getting bad down there. I go there for the beach but let's face it, peopel gamble year round, the beach is summer only. there are two locations, south philly and north del ave. cabs are reeadily available from 30th st and let's face it, philly is a beter destination than AC. and let's see what happens to the "cheap gas of NJ" when their transportation fudns run out in 2011

Tritransit Area wrote:I like the idea. As a matter of fact, TMA Bucks operated such a shuttle a few years ago, called the Bensalem RUSH. It operated from Cornwells Heights to the Casino via Bridgewater Industrial Park (not sure where that is), Tillman Drive, ITT Tech, and, of course, the Casino. Unfortunately, ridership didn't do so well and it was discontinued.

The TMA Bucks shuttle that serves Philadelphia Park is known as the Street Road RUSHBus, which connects at Trevose (R3) but not Cornwells Heights and also serves the Bucks County Tech. Park, Horizon Corporate Ctr., Neshaminy Interplex, and Tillman Drive. They must have really cut that route back, as it only goes as far a Trevose; I thought it went further west towards Warminster, but I could be wrong.

I do agree that some sort of shuttle between Cornwells Heights and Philadelphia Park could work, perhaps serving Franklin Mills as well - either as a SEPTA route or a TMA Bucks route.

ctrabs74 wrote:

Tritransit Area wrote:I like the idea. As a matter of fact, TMA Bucks operated such a shuttle a few years ago, called the Bensalem RUSH. It operated from Cornwells Heights to the Casino via Bridgewater Industrial Park (not sure where that is), Tillman Drive, ITT Tech, and, of course, the Casino. Unfortunately, ridership didn't do so well and it was discontinued.

The TMA Bucks shuttle that serves Philadelphia Park is known as the Street Road rushbus, which connects at Trevose (R3) but not Cornwells Heights and also serves the Bucks County Tech. Park, Horizon Corporate Ctr., Neshaminy Interplex, and Tillman Drive. They must have really cut that route back, as it only goes as far a Trevose; I thought it went further west towards Warminster, but I could be wrong.

I do agree that some sort of shuttle between Cornwells Heights and Philadelphia Park could work, perhaps serving Franklin Mills as well - either as a SEPTA route or a TMA Bucks route.

The Street Road rushbus used have two branches, one of which went as far as Southampton. However, due to low ridership, especially with the movement of CHI to Franklin Mills, the "West" branch to Southampton was discontinued, and only the "East" portion remains.

The Bensalem RUSH was a separate route, but it would be interesting to see if it could return (as a TMA or a SEPTA route) and be more successful with the Casino expansion and better marketing. Of course, route 50 may take away from the potential ridership, as people coming from Philadelphia may likely take the bus as a cheaper alternative to the train. One can dream, I guess...

A couple of thoughts and questions.

First, extending the NJ Transit West Trenton to Jenkintown was considered and rejected in the original study.

It seems like re-establishing the Clockers through to 30th Street is a no brainer but could NJ Transit trains -- either Clockers or the Atlantic City trains be extended to the airport? (Just seems that NJ residents would benefit a lot from not having to drive or transfer to get there and Pa folks would have less crowded highways.)

It also seems that extending passenger rail to Moorestown -- whether NJ Transit run or part of the Septa system would benefit everyone. (And while we're at it, why not extend that line to a new station by the ball parks? From reading other posts it seems that having a station in that area would really benefit everyone in the Philly area.)

bleet wrote:It seems like re-establishing the Clockers through to 30th Street is a no brainer

The DVRPC wasn't quite that enthusiastic, but their study says there'd be a considerable market for the service. The issues are funding from PA and slots into Penn Station.

but could NJ Transit trains -- either Clockers or the Atlantic City trains be extended to the airport?

Yes, but it's politically unlikely, since it would divert potential passengers away from ACY airport.

It also seems that extending passenger rail to Moorestown -- whether NJ Transit run or part of the Septa system would benefit everyone.

Well, yeah, but where is the money for it?

And while we're at it, why not extend that line to a new station by the ball parks?

Because it would be a tremendously roundabout route, even if there is a connection from the station tracks at 30th Street down to South Philadelphia (and I'm not sure there is).

Matthew Mitchell wrote:Because it would be a tremendously roundabout route, even if there is a connection from the station tracks at 30th Street down to South Philadelphia (and I'm not sure there is).

I think you're right on this. Although usually the only times I've been down there have been to go to the Turf Club (Off-track betting) location in South Philadelphia (at Darien & Packer), I don't remember there being any tracks in the area that connect to 30th Street. You'd likely have to build some sort of tunnel that would run from Center City to the Stadium complex for this to work.

That said, if you can do it, and have it somehow connect to the R7 line going to Trenton, then it would definitely be worth it if you could have NJ Transit trains go on that route to/from the Sports Complex to/from Newark/New York, which would especially be useful for Mets or Yankees/Phillies and Jets or Giants/Eagles games at the complex. It might also be worth doing once the new complex that is scheduled to replace the Spectrum that is being demolished soon is completed.

Wallyhorse wrote:I think you're right on this. Although usually the only times I've been down there have been to go to the Turf Club (Off-track betting) location in South Philadelphia (at Darien & Packer), I don't remember there being any tracks in the area that connect to 30th Street. You'd likely have to build some sort of tunnel that would run from Center City to the Stadium complex for this to work.]

I think what Bleet was talking about was using the ex-PRR line going down to Greenwich yard. It ends up on the other side of I-95 from the stadium complex. For aforementioned reasons, it would not be very effective.

While I do not believe there currently is a physical track connection in the correct direction, the freight-only 25th Street branch would make an excellent route.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8& ... d&t=h&z=13

Edit - after making the map, the train could theoretically "reverse" out of 30th Street (upper or lower!) and run down to the freight connection (the leg of the wye that connects to the NEC) and from there run straight up the branch, over the bridge, and through the woods to the Stadium Complex.

I drove under this elevated track before wondering if it was ever passenger rail. Does anyone know? Wouldn't this make sense to have SEPTA run trains along this line?

Yes, that run along 25th St. would be an excellent corridor for frequent (say half-hourly) service through South Philly, a neighborhood completely devoid of regional rail service. Especially once they knock down the Spectrum, there would be demand for service. And regional rail service would get people off the BSL on heavily traveled event days at the connection at City Hall, and make better connections to the burbs. The circuitous route is moot, since the R1 doesn't go over the river (or under), but rather the round-about way, and back-tracks through the terminals. But say you build a flyover off the NEC (like the R1), I'd still build a new terminal north of Greenwich Yard in one of the parking lots of the Stadium Complex.

However, there is no connection to the NEC, and you're NOT going to gunk things up by having a reverse on it. And would this REALLY be the biggest priority for Septa?

As for NJT to the airport, the R1 already has that single-tracked bottleneck. You'd need to address that before sending NJT or Amtrak into there. And do they really want to?

cpontani wrote: Especially once they knock down the Spectrum, there would be demand for service.

Why would knocking down the Spectrum create demand for service?

What about the question of whether there ever was passenger service on this line? Does anyone know?

gardendance wrote:

cpontani wrote: Especially once they knock down the Spectrum, there would be demand for service.

Why would knocking down the Spectrum create demand for service?

They're building a retail/entertainment complex in its place. There will be jobs/shopping on a more every-day basis, not just during sporting events and concerts.