SEPTA NJT COOPERATION idea

walnut wrote:Instead of dropping $200 million into the Reading line east of West Trenton, drop $30 million into the Trenton Cutoff and Trenton station. Re-electrify, build a yard bypass, and a new flyover/connection between the Cutoff and the West Trenton line at Woodbourne.

Then run NJT (or Amtrak for that matter) from Trenton to Jenkintown via the cutoff and the West Trenton branch.

The purpose of the NJT proposal to restore service to West Trenton isn't Pennsylvania commuters, it's New Jersey commuters in those portions of Somerset and Mercer counties.

The title of this thread is SEPTA/NJT Cooperation. Thus, the Morrisville connector and run-through service is very appropriate, and would be the epitome of SEPTA/NJT cooperation, accomplishing many of the objectives of the original proposal.

If NJT wishes to spend $200 million or so to restore service from West Trenton to Hoboken, so be it. Run through with SEPTA and take us back to 1980. However, when thinking about all the other commuter rail priorities in New Jersey, will it happen? If resources are limited, should it?

The Morrisville/Trenton Cutoff project would probably be cheaper, easier, and would open up a new travel route that doesn't exist today (the same as the other project would).

Most of the population density and jobs are actually along the NEC, not the parallel line. Thus, connecting places like Jenkintown to places like New Brunswick may make a lot of sense. By comparison, Belle Meade is unlikely to attract very many trips from PA, and how many people there would actually travel to Philadelphia? Under the circumstances, the commercial prospects seem dim, whereas there may be some efficiencies gained by having NJT trains originate further into Pennsylvania instead of at Morrisville yard.

Temple could be served by adding North Philly to Keystone trains. that's not to say it's a bad idea to run trains to NY from Jenkintown (even if it went through trenton) just that we should exhaust existing options first.

Jenkintown garage: I read that not only does Jenkintown oppose this project but they are trying to force SEPTA to hold referendums on any future projects before moving forward with them.

walnut wrote:The title of this thread is SEPTA/NJT Cooperation. Thus, the Morrisville connector and run-through service is very appropriate, and would be the epitome of SEPTA/NJT cooperation, accomplishing many of the objectives of the original proposal.

If NJT wishes to spend $200 million or so to restore service from West Trenton to Hoboken, so be it. Run through with SEPTA and take us back to 1980. However, when thinking about all the other commuter rail priorities in New Jersey, will it happen? If resources are limited, should it?

The Morrisville/Trenton Cutoff project would probably be cheaper, easier, and would open up a new travel route that doesn't exist today (the same as the other project would).

Most of the population density and jobs are actually along the NEC, not the parallel line. Thus, connecting places like Jenkintown to places like New Brunswick may make a lot of sense. By comparison, Belle Meade is unlikely to attract very many trips from PA, and how many people there would actually travel to Philadelphia? Under the circumstances, the commercial prospects seem dim, whereas there may be some efficiencies gained by having NJT trains originate further into Pennsylvania instead of at Morrisville yard.

I like this idea of the cutoff.

Belle Mead and that area to Philadelphia would not be so uncommon. People from Yardly to NYC also not so uncommon. The point is that the state line is a rather arbitrary marker of people's commuting habits and breaking free of this is beneficial to expanding commuter rail usage as I would imagine the number of people willing to change trains between two agencies is less than those who would take the train for a single seat ride--especially in the era of hyper-connectivity.

If NJ Transit were to operate service across the Trenton Cut-Off from either the NEC or the West Trenton line, could the agreement be made with the State of Pennsylvania? I would think bypassing Septa would get it done faster. In either case, Septa does not own the rails needed to access the Trenton Cut-Off. Running diesel service from West Trenton would help keep costs down, but I understand your point about more commuters needing access to the NEC.

Frankly, I'd like to see the clockers return to Philadelphia so there can be reasonably fast service between Philadelphia, Cornwells Heights, Trenton, and other former clocker stops. Am I correct in stating that the clocker ran non-stop to Newark from Princeton Junction?! I imagine that this would be the most desirable service compared to service on the SEPTA Main Line/R3 West Trenton. There would be more tracks available, a higher MAS, etc.

Also, I would like better inter-agency pricing. At the moment, the inter-agency pass only applies to the Northeast Corridor Line and SEPTA Regional Rail (which still is a great start, anyway). There are tons of NJT buses that connect with the R7 and other SEPTA lines in Center City. Many people are making the cross-river trek for employment, but traveling via transit can be cost prohibitive/inconvenient.

The options I mentioned are the easiest to implement, in my opinion, over trying to bring back passenger rail service that was discontinued for decades.

the most important interagency problem is PATCO/SEPTA (from a Philadelphia perspective). It shoudl be run more like WMATA rather than two separate agencies. I don't get why the state doesn't work with Amtrak to add North Philly and Cornwells to the Keystones, and lower the prices a bit. there's no need for new capital or even interagency cooperation (which I see as more important in NY where NJT wastes vasts amouunts of resources because they treat it as a terminal)

Suburban Station wrote:the most important interagency problem is PATCO/SEPTA (from a Philadelphia perspective). It shoudl be run more like WMATA rather than two separate agencies.

I agree with you, but there wouldn't be much a point in combining them unless in doing so, you provide for free transfers. That won't happen because both agencies would lose a lot of money. The DRPA probably would probably stand to lose a lot of money if everyone payed, at most, $2 for a free transfer from the BSL or MFSE to a New Jersey-bound train. All that money would go to SEPTA. Think of paying the separate fare as the equivalent of paying a bridge toll; certainly the DRPA wouldn't want people to cross their bridges without paying a toll. Conversely, I bet SEPTA would stand to lose a lot of money without people paying for a transfer.

I don't get why the state doesn't work with Amtrak to add North Philly and Cornwells to the Keystones, and lower the prices a bit. there's no need for new capital or even interagency cooperation (which I see as more important in NY where NJT wastes vasts amouunts of resources because they treat it as a terminal)

Cornwell's Heights, yes, but North Philly? Is there a good market for riders from Harrisburg/Exton/Ardmore to North Philly?

I've always thought that SEPTA should buy the ACL, then restore service on the Mount Holly branch, and run it in conjunction with the SEPTA we know now in the way that MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR. Call it the South Jersey railroad.

MikeBPRR wrote: I agree with you, but there wouldn't be much a point in combining them unless in doing so, you provide for free transfers. That won't happen because both agencies would lose a lot of money. The DRPA probably would probably stand to lose a lot of money if everyone payed, at most, $2 for a free transfer from the BSL or MFSE to a New Jersey-bound train. All that money would go to SEPTA. Think of paying the separate fare as the equivalent of paying a bridge toll; certainly the DRPA wouldn't want people to cross their bridges without paying a toll. Conversely, I bet SEPTA would stand to lose a lot of money without people paying for a transfer.

that's why they should be run as one system, perhaps once the new fare system is in place they will be able to track where peopel get on/off like WMATA.

MikeBPRR wrote: Cornwell's Heights, yes, but North Philly? Is there a good market for riders from Harrisburg/Exton/Ardmore to North Philly?

I think the main riders at north Philly would be Temple folks, for now. i think it's a long term growth market though, the area has bottomed out. heck, I'd take an apartment on the top floor of the old botany 500 building. IMO, this station starts to make more sense if the NE subway is finally built. most likely the main riders would be north rather than west.

MikeBPRR wrote: I've always thought that SEPTA should buy the ACL, then restore service on the Mount Holly branch, and run it in conjunction with the SEPTA we know now in the way that MTA runs Metro-North and the LIRR. Call it the South Jersey railroad.

not a bad idea, though I doubt SEPTA wants to be involved with Atlantic city. it'll be lights out once table games open in Philly (actually, I think North Philly station would have been the perfect place for a casino, 70 minutes from NYC).

not a bad idea, though I doubt SEPTA wants to be involved with Atlantic city. it'll be lights out once table games open in Philly (actually, I think North Philly station would have been the perfect place for a casino, 70 minutes from NYC).

You actually are right (since it also would be near the Broad Street Subway), but I suspect Temple would big-time oppose having a casino so close to its campus.

The way the law works here, 12% of all gaming revenue goes to purses for horse racing (divided equally between the state's horse racing tracks, and the purse disparity between Pennsylvania and New Jersey has become noticable. That will only get larger once the purses become larger. Speaking of that, maybe it's time SEPTA looked doing a major upgrade to the Eddington Station on the R7 Line and set up a shuttle between that station and Philadelphia Park.

Wallyhorse wrote:Speaking of that, maybe it's time SEPTA looked doing a major upgrade to the Eddington Station on the R7 Line and set up a shuttle between that station and Philadelphia Park.

For that, there would need to be MAJOR capital investment. From what I can see, there are major access problems for Eddington Station that really can't be changed. For one, the bridge over the station that carries Street Road doesn't have a shoulder for a bus to pull over, not to mention the congestion from the I-95 exit there. The entire bridge, which traverses three major regional arteries (Bristol Pike, Northeast Corridor, AND I-95) would need to be widened to accomodate bus and pedestrian access.

If anything, Cornwells Heights would be better suited for a casino and racetrack connecting bus route, especially if ACES decides to stop for big horse races in town. However, ACES is subsidized by the Atlantic City casinos to keep places like Philadelphia Park from taking their business.

R3 Passenger wrote:

Wallyhorse wrote:Speaking of that, maybe it's time SEPTA looked doing a major upgrade to the Eddington Station on the R7 Line and set up a shuttle between that station and Philadelphia Park.

For that, there would need to be MAJOR capital investment. From what I can see, there are major access problems for Eddington Station that really can't be changed. For one, the bridge over the station that carries Street Road doesn't have a shoulder for a bus to pull over, not to mention the congestion from the I-95 exit there. The entire bridge, which traverses three major regional arteries (Bristol Pike, Northeast Corridor, AND I-95) would need to be widened to accomodate bus and pedestrian access.

If anything, Cornwells Heights would be better suited for a casino and racetrack connecting bus route, especially if ACES decides to stop for big horse races in town. However, ACES is subsidized by the Atlantic City casinos to keep places like Philadelphia Park from taking their business.

I like the idea. As a matter of fact, TMA Bucks operated such a shuttle a few years ago, called the Bensalem RUSH. It operated from Cornwells Heights to the Casino via Bridgewater Industrial Park (not sure where that is), Tillman Drive, ITT Tech, and, of course, the Casino. Unfortunately, ridership didn't do so well and it was discontinued.

Here's a link to an article about the Bensalem RUSH: http://www.rushbus.org/tmawebsitetemp/bctma/scoop.html

Rush Bus Sees Steady Growth
BENSALEM - More and more people are hopping on the Bensalem Rush Bus each week as casino employees and gamblers discover a low-cost ride to Philadelphia Park Casino.

Ridership has increased 67 percent in the first two weeks of January, transportation officials said.

The bus began service in mid-December with a route that links SEPTA's Cornwells Heights train station and the slots parlor on Street Road. As many as 30 people ride the bus daily. The bus also makes stops at Neshaminy Mall, the Bridgewater Industrial Park and the ITT Technical Institute on Tillman Drive.

It's a free ride for SEPTA riders who have a monthly or weekly pass. Otherwise, you'll pay a dollar.

The Bensalem Rush Bus is managed by Bucks County Transportation Management Association and funded in part by a federal grant of $130,000. The TMA operates four other rush buses, servicing Trevose, Bristol, Newtown and Warminster.

TMA Executive Director Bill Rickett said he expects the Bensalem Rush to soon be the agency's “best performing shuttle.”

Philadelphia Park Casino officials said they have hired 700 people for the slots parlor, which opened last month. Ten of them are taking the Bensalem Rush Bus, according to Steve Noll, deputy director for the TMA.

“People have to hear about these routes and they have to see these routes as reliable. As that happens, they will continue to be more popular,” Noll said.

For more information about the RUSH buses, call 866-862-7433. Bus route maps and schedules are also available online at www.rushbus.org

Of course, things have changed since then. Perhaps something new could come into place...if the Casino was willing to put some money into it so there could be frequent all-day service.

Suburban Station wrote:the most important interagency problem is PATCO/SEPTA (from a Philadelphia perspective). It shoudl be run more like WMATA rather than two separate agencies. I don't get why the state doesn't work with Amtrak to add North Philly and Cornwells to the Keystones, and lower the prices a bit. there's no need for new capital or even interagency cooperation (which I see as more important in NY where NJT wastes vasts amouunts of resources because they treat it as a terminal)

I agree. However, doesn't Pennsylvania provide a significant subsidy to Amtrak already for the Keystone? I'm wondering if Amtrak refuses to lower prices on Keystone trains operating over the Northeast Corridor because transportation over that corridor is a "premium service".

BTW, Cornwells Heights and North Philadelphia are stops with extraordinarily limited weekday service on Keystone Trains. More service to these stops would be great.

Would it be possible to redevelop the station and area? It could really be something if something like a TRID or TOD project were to occur in this area. It might change the bad stigma of North Philadelphia around.

Now, I'm trying to find information on commuter fares for Amtrak, but the website does not make any mention of the "Smart Pass". Am I correct in assuming that Amtrak eliminated this fare option? If so, it would be prudent for the state of Pennsylvania (and to an extent, NJ) to work with Amtrak to make this a viable and affordable option. It would be great to enourage people to live in this state, and would make it easier (and more comfortable) for commuters, rather than have to deal with NJT extending multilevels to Philadelphia, further overcrowding their trains.

Edit note: I just found information on the "Multi-Trip Tickets" via a general search on the web. It's not well posted on the website. Wow, those tickets are pricey.

R3 PAssenger wrote:If anything, Cornwells Heights would be better suited for a casino and racetrack connecting bus route, especially if ACES decides to stop for big horse races in town. However, ACES is subsidized by the Atlantic City casinos to keep places like Philadelphia Park from taking their business.

there's a better chance of the service being cancelled than them funding competition.

Tritransit Area wrote: I agree. However, doesn't Pennsylvania provide a significant subsidy to Amtrak already for the Keystone? I'm wondering if Amtrak refuses to lower prices on Keystone trains operating over the Northeast Corridor because transportation over that corridor is a "premium service".

PA funds Philly to Harrisburg portion only

Tritransit Area wrote: BTW, Cornwells Heights and North Philadelphia are stops with extraordinarily limited weekday service on Keystone Trains. More service to these stops would be great.

North Philly gets one train a day M-Fr, I'd use it on saturdays if they stopped trains there.

Tritransit Area wrote: Would it be possible to redevelop the station and area? It could really be something if something like a TRID or TOD project were to occur in this area. It might change the bad stigma of North Philadelphia around.

absolutely, there's some intact buildings there already (including the former botany 500 which has stunning views of the city since that particular intersection is elevated). the station is occupied by a dolalr store, there's a pathmark (or shoprite?) and a strip mall there which keps the south side of the station fairly active (and not creepy). the north side feels more isolated and that's where the parking lot is, though certainly good lighting shoudl be enough, it's not the worst area in the world.

Tritransit Area wrote: Now, I'm trying to find information on commuter fares for Amtrak, but the website does not make any mention of the "Smart Pass". Am I correct in assuming that Amtrak eliminated this fare option? If so, it would be prudent for the state of Pennsylvania (and to an extent, NJ) to work with Amtrak to make this a viable and affordable option. It would be great to enourage people to live in this state, and would make it easier (and more comfortable) for commuters, rather than have to deal with NJT extending multilevels to Philadelphia, further overcrowding their trains.

Amtrak sells multi-rides
http://tickets.amtrak.com/itd/amtrak/multiride
I was quoted $1,152 for a monthly ticket
Certainly lower that by 25% would be huge, they could even make Keystones unreserved, and perhaps have non-refundable tickets ($50RT)