Save the F40PH

100,000 to 200,000 dollars to buy it, at least 7,000--10,000 to move it (NOT speculation, I have "experience" with this), and how much to prep it for moving, how much to insure it, store it, fill it up (at $4.65/gal), etc.

So, how much "stuff" ya gonna sell on-line? I guess the model train collection will have to go, eh? Do you have ANY concept of the cost of this endeavor?

Please. You want to mess with this stuff (the full-sized iron)? Show up at the local RR museum of your choice and get involved. Dosen't have to be manual labor; I know a couple of places that could use some good administrative help and a good grant-writer. There's more than enough "stuff" laying around in need of resources (money, manpower, covered storage, etc.).

You want to mess with this stuff (the full-sized iron)? Show up at the local RR museum of your choice and get involved.

Read before you post and make your self look like a fool I am part of a couple of railroad museumes
The Berkshire Scenic Railway Museum and Shelburne Falls Trolley Museum

I say, if you want to put the time and effort into saving a certain piece of railroad equipment, Go for it! If you are interested in saving an F-40 Ph, as far as I know there isn't one owned by a museum in the Tri-state area (I could be wrong...). There are likely others interested in the same goal, many hands do make light work. In the end if you try and do not succed at least you made an effort. It sounds as if you've done some preliminary research, but you'll need to make sure your ducks are in a row before looking for $ donations or donations of land, materials, etc...

Mike

p.s. too bad they didn't organize a "Save a NYC Hudson..."

Ham, I did read your post. Is everything at BSRM and SFTM properly restored and/or conserved? Under a roof, out of the weather? Nothing left to do on any of the "stuff" at either place? Then go look for "more stuff".

The railroad preservation groups are going to be going though a "rationalization" and downsizing of their collections ("stuff") over the next 5-10 years--- in some cases, it's already under way.

By the way, I have been responsible for getting plenty of "stuff" over the years; probably too much, in fact. I have learned that a building to cover what is already at a place is far more important than more stuff that will sit outside. "Rust Never Sleeps." But a building will slow it down by 90%.

One last thing: Call me a fool, if you like. I've even used that term about myself. And I've been called far worse by more people that you can imagine!

HFM
Official Old Fart
Walkin' the walk in old railroad stuff since 1970....

I am glad you mentioned buildings. See at the Shelburne Falls Trolley Museum we need a new car barn, I was listening to everybody worry how it would cost Hundreds of thousands of dollars but I said we could do it for 1/4 the cost. No one believed me until I got the estimate. Olympia Steel Buildings gave me an estimate of $20,000 far better than $100,000+ they were thinking of. A lot of these railroad preservation groups need to know where to look for solutions to there problems and share there extra stuff with each other. So as you can see I am quite active in preservation already.

Ham549 wrote:Read before you post and make your self look like a fool I am part of a couple of railroad museumes
The Berkshire Scenic Railway Museum and Shelburne Falls Trolley Museum

Hoo boy, you better watch your step before you start calling folks like HFM a "fool." More railroad preservation experience in his pinky nail than in your whole body, friend.

-otto-

Your answers are unresponsive.

2) How will raise the money to pay for it?
Selling stuff online, PayPal donations ex ex

Let's pretend the purchase cost is $250,000. That's a lot of "stuff" and you're counting on a lot of "donations."

3) How will you transport it?
By rail

I'm sure the railroad will move your engine for free, right?

4) Where will you move the unit to? Stored on a private siding or at a museum or restoration facility?
museum

WHERE?? I want a physical address and a letter on letterhead from the museum/facility that agrees to store your engine. I'm sure they'll store it for free and not charge you rent.

5) After you purchase and move the unit, then what? Restoration? Display?
Both

Guess you have a staff and the money lined up for restoration and operation?

6) Who will pay for its continued upkeep?
Donations, my own pocket, revenue it generates from hauling trains.

Donations? Your own pocket? Not realistic!!

-otto-

I'm sure the railroad will move your engine for free, right?

I never said that, When I placed a (extremely low ) bid on 316 I fully researched the cost and rough to ship it (would have cost me a little over $4 Grand)

WHERE?? I want a physical address and a letter on letterhead from the museum/facility that agrees to store your engine. I'm sure they'll store it for free and not charge you rent.

I already said in my first post that I was working on that the first place I was going to put it was the Shelburne Falls Trolley Museum, but that started to look more and more unlikely so currently I am checking out the Berkshire Scenic Railroad.

Let's pretend the purchase cost is $250,000. That's a lot of "stuff" and you're counting on a lot of "donations."

I am not planning on raseing all my money on just internet sails, donations, and anything else I can think of.

Guess you have a staff and the money lined up for restoration and operation?

The units I have been looking at are already Blue carded and ready to go.

WHERE?? I want a physical address and a letter on letterhead from the museum/facility that agrees to store your engine. I'm sure they'll store it for free and not charge you rent.
--I already said in my first post that I was working on that the first place I was going to put it was the Shelburne Falls Trolley Museum, but that started to look more and more unlikely so currently I am checking out the Berkshire Scenic Railroad.

Why would Shelburne Falls TROLLEY MUSEUM want an F40PH? They have about 1200 feet of track and one trolley. Doesn't seem to fit into their collection, if you ask me. And you've yet to convince me Berkshire Scenic needs a gas-guzzling HEP-equipped F40PH to pull their steam-heated ex-DLW heavyweight trailers.

Guess you have a staff and the money lined up for restoration and operation?
-- The units I have been looking at are already Blue carded and ready to go.

Yeah... today. What happens 92 days from now?? Who's going to perform your inspection and keep that blue card current? and what happens when it needs repairs after some FRA inspector takes it out of service for whatever reason?

My advice: Quit banging your head against the wall and start channeling some of that enthusiasm into the museums you volunteer with. See how much you can get done there before you go off half-cocked about buying an engine.

-otto-

The Berkshire has a nice little conrail pup that needs TLC. Why not start with that? That engine would be a lot more useful than a F40. (Who would rent or lease a F40????)

YOu do realize diesel is $5 a gallon? 3000x5 = $15,000 just to fill er up. Ouch. Not a cheap hobby.

I admire the enthusiasm and determination of this young man, but I hope (for his own sake) he listens to the EXCELLENT advice that has been offered to this point.

Understand there are already several ex-Amtrak F40PH's that are in what would be considered "safe" homes with little or no chance of being deactivated/sold/scrapped: right off the top of my head we have the 231 out in Portland, the Iowa Northern's faux-Rock Island "678" and the 239 on the GCRY. Just because they are not in your backyard where you can conveniently go visit/work on/play with them does not reduce the validity of their preservation.

You can be *assured* as time goes on there will be others. I know for a fact Illniois Railway Museum will almost certainly get a Metra F40PH when the time comes for their disposition.

Out in your neck of the woods, I would echo the previous comments to encourage you to work with an ESTABLISHED museum/tourist line that encompasses that type of equipment. Asking a trolley museum to preserve a main line diesel locomotive is like taking a knife to gunfight: you aren't going to get far. Also be prepared for the possibility that the home you ultimately find for the unit may not be anywhere near your home, so you may not be able to conveniently go "bask in the glory" of your accomplishment, so to speak.

You may also find a Museum in your neck of the woods that would like an F40PH, but if they're going to only get ONE, they may be more interested in waiting for an MBTA unit (which could be argued has more geographical relevance than an Amtrak unit).

I actually see a good future for presevation of F40s and similar locos, as tourist railroads are forced to re-equip/upgrade/expand their rolling stock and this generation of equipment will soon become museum pieces in their own right. Pretty much everything coming available from this point forward will be HEP equipped, and in order to provide proper passenger amenities, they will have to be pulled by an HEP-equipped locomotive. Out at IRM they now have a three-car C&NW bilevel commuter train. They will not be the last Museum to acquire a set of HEP-equipped rolling stock.

I wish you well, but I also strongly caution you not to let it consume you. Be very aware that it is all too easy to let your self-image and your project become horribly intertwined, to the point where if your project ultimately fails it will be far too easy to assign the failure to yourself and that will be very damaging.

If I might add my voice to Otto's suggestion: You might find it easier (and ultimately more satisfying) to look around the Museum you're currently associated with (Shelburne Falls?) and find a current project that could benefit from all your enthusiasm.

NZ

There are things at the Trolley museum I am working on. We don't have much equipment there but as it goes the caboose is almost done and next in line is the 0-4-0T for cosmetic restoration. I have done helped put furnishings back into the trolley and have even found another trolley near by that we might be able to get in the future. I am not asking any of these museums to get them for me all I want is a place to display it. If worse comes to worse there is the Conway scenic railroad which am sure would love an HEP dynamic brake locomotive. The BSRM looks promising but there are a few big hurtles, the main one being the F40PH isn't really set up to run backwards and that is something that it needs to do. They do have a cabcar (needs work) or the F40PH could be run via a remote on the return trip. Another option is to only use it for special train trips that need the power. No one seems to want to discuss a place to put the F40PH until I have one, No one wants to donate money until I have a place to put it

Ham, with all due respect, please take the advice of your fellow posters. These guys really do know what they are talking about. They aren't the types to put down an idea for no reason.

You and I are about the same age, and I too once had the desire to own/save a locomotive. Then a few years ago I began working on the restoration of a GE 45 ton locomotive at the Rochester and Genesee Valley Railroad Museum. Before I knew it, I was foreman of that project. And you know what? My desire to own a locomotive as disappeared. Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free? I can work on this locomotive and enjoy my accomplishments without actually owning the thing. Plus I'm having a great time doing it! It really helps out the museum too.

Trust me... you have to put a lot of work into these things to get a little play out of them. You really need to have a museum behind you 100% and a good group of volunteers. I can't tell you how much I've learned from this project. It really is amazing what goes into keeping these locomotives running. Just this year I've had my hands on injectors, belts, hoses, fuel cut-off cables, headlamps, primer, paint, gaskets, window glass, etc... and this is for a little 45 tonner! I realize the locomotive you are looking at is blue carded and all, but a few years out in the elements really takes its toll on a locomotive. It's amazing what a little water can do when it seeps through a perforation in a muffler, as it did on our 45 tonner. Engine rebuilds are quite an experience. I'm not trying to turn you away from this hobby... just making sure you understand what it takes. I'm sure you know some of this from your museum experiences.

It seems you've come to this board for some advice. Please consider the advice that is given to you. I think I can speak for everyone when I say that's all we can ask for.


Rochester Gas and Electric GE 45 Tonner, #1941

Getting a museum behind me is one of the things that I have been trying to do this whole time. I am praying that the BSRM will help me, I am going to write a paper and present it to them soon.

Every group needs one or two people that'll be dedicated to a cause, no matter what. But, don't let this project consume you. Back in 2001 in my first year of college, I asked around to see if there were any local rail museums, and it turned out that the county historical society was restoring a steam locomotive from one of the local smelters. Well... the county historical society's restoration staff turned out to be a single mechanical engineering student, wholly driven by this Porter locomotive. I helped him out once or twice, but then he told me that I'd be taking over the project. That chased me away pretty quickly - even an 0-4-0T is a huge project for one person, when you don't have the faintest clue where to start. Eventually they got enough people together to finish the locomotive and it runs now, but it's still not a one person job.

Just for comparison: the Minnesota Transportation Museum's Traction Division (now the Minnesota Streetcar Museum) acquired two ex-Twin Cities PCC cars from New Jersey. It took 8 years, $125,000, and something on the order of 10,000 volunteer hours just to restore one (we sold the other), and we're still constantly fixing relays on the beast. I can't imagine rebuilding an entire F40PH by myself, especially one that's been used hard and is rusting, leaking fluids, has a zillion electrical faults, and needs a rebuilt power assembly... and a 16-645 probably isn't cheap.

Good luck finding a group interested in this sort of project, then finding grants and other funding, donations from railroads, all the electrical, mechanical, and body drawings, a place to work on the machine, and FINALLY, a suitable F40PH in good condition. If you were looking to save an F40C, an F45 or FP45, or an SDP40F, you'd find more takers, but the F40PH just isn't rare enough... yet. At least someone's interested in the F40PH though. I have no doubt that a museum will take one in someday, and that they won't go the way of passenger locomotives like the P30CH, the Centipede or the Erie-Built.

Finally, be patient, and don't bankrupt yourself over a hunk of metal.