Saratoga & North Creek (S&NC) Discussion - 2014

And this is why I don't bother to spell out the obvious; you'd just clog up the place with umpteen more paragraphs that say nothing or say the same things over and over. If I wanted to read that I'd go to a political site -

Tony Goodwin wrote:Thanks for all the personal attacks that did nothing to answer the issues I raised. Asking how many times my mother dropped me on my head doesn't exactly raise the level of this debate.

Neither does anything you have to say raise the level of this debate. Seriously, Tony, all abuse, ridicule, and insult aside, you repeatedly demonstrate your ignorance of railroading. Why do you keep asking dumb questions like "Why would a railroad sell rocks to itself?"

We all know the answer to that: because you hate railroads, and want to see each and every one in New York State ripped up and turned into a rail-trail. You are the enemy of every railroad, including Norfolk-Southern and CSX, and every short line, and every state- and county-owned railroad.

And I'm just the person to keep putting you off and putting you down, because I have far more experience with rail-trails in New York State than you, or anybody else. http://blog.russnelson.com/bicycling/ra ... ls-12.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (recently published, and I've since ridden the Charlie Major Nature Trail.)

Overreactions itt, not sure I understand the hostility towards Tony, I thought his points on this matter are pretty valid, you guys need to chill.

Joha 107: Tony Goodwin is one of the principal people in the group attempting to rip out the tracks from Thendara to Lake Placid to build a "recreational trail" that will never be finished. He wants pepole here to believe he "really likes trains" though. As you can see he is very good at making friends.

I really don't see what is so wrong with stone shipments starting on a small scale basis. They wouldn't have 40 hopper cars on the line if they didn't have a use for them.

News from the Yahoo group is that the stone cars are loaded with 100 tons each and brought from the mine to North Creek 5 cars at a time. In North creek a 20 car train will be made up and taken to Saratoga for interchange with CP once they have 20 cars. This is the 2,000 tons of the 8,000 ton order that is going completely by rail. The cars have a 100 ton capacity, depending on the density of the material being hauled that may or may not "fill" a car. The word is the 20 car train from North Creek is to head out on Tuesday. I hope this information helps.
Don

I am familiar with Tony's reputation on this board, and while I don't agree with his position on the Adirondack Scenic, I do think he presents some interesting counter arguments to the discussion and mostly does it in a respectful manner. Whats the point of having a good discussion of a topic if you don't have multiple viewpoints being offered and insight into the oppositions mindset?

Matt and Russ I apologize for feeding the animals, but I need to let Joha 107 about Tony's half truths he is always spouting.

He said only 5 cars partially filled. Two things wrong with that statement:

1. The order is for 8,000 tons, each car can hold 100 tons. If you do the math that comes out to 80 cars. As I said in my previous post they are bring them to North Creek 5 cars at a time until they get 20 or the 2,000 tons that will be shipped completely by rail. The next 6,000 tons will do the train-truck-barge-train trip. I'm not sure how they will handle those 60 cars.

2. The cars are load to capacity which is 100 tons. The material is dense enough so it doesn't "fill" the car volume wise. Tony should know both truck and rail cars have weight limits on what they can hold, so a half empty looking car is really FULL.

He harps on IPH selling stone to another IPH company, the Cape Cod Central/Mass Coastal. CCC does not own the track, MassDOT owns the track and MBTA operates seasonal trains on the line to the Cape and the line is undergoing upgrades for the MBTA. If it wasn't cost competitive MassDOT wouldn't allow CCC to price gouge them. Seems smart business to me both companies get something out of the deal and IPH benifits from it.

He goes on about 1 shipment of garnet when it was actually 2 in 2013 and that deal isn't dead, just needs more tweaking.

Anyone who knows anything about business knows when you are starting out it takes a lot of hard work and time. The reason most businesses fail is they can't put in the long hours over many years see very little in profits to get the business going. You don't just snap your fingers and freight customers come knocking on your door. SNC is working to get freight business and this relatively small 8,000 ton contract will help prime the pump of future freight business.

If you want to verify what I said do an internet search and check out the Warren County Government site. There are monthly meeting where the railroad gives updates to the public works committee.
Don

Don,
Thanks for your factual response - a refreshing change from other recent responses. You answered my question about why the hopper cars did not appear to be full in the video. You also clarified the exact ownership relationship for the Mass Coastal, and I appreciate the difficulty any start-up faces in regaining business that might have been lost by earlier management.

Nevertheless, I hope that from your knowledge or railroad operations you will agree that two box-car-loads in a year doesn't begin to constitute a profitable freight operation. As for the tailings transport, I would believe that Iowa Pacific can set the delivered price low enough that Massachusetts will accept it at that price. Given that there is a quarry practically on the line, I don't think I am overly negative in suggesting that the IPH method of delivery is not cost-effective and therefore not sustainable.

Bringing cars to North Creek five at at time (considerable engine and crew time for each round trip) to make a 20 car cut that CP will accept cannot be without a significant cost. Then there must be payment to both CP and CSX just to get the material to the Mass Coastal at Taunton. The train, truck, barge scenario seems even less probable, but I'll be prepared to publicly retract that statement if such service actually proves to be profitable over the long run.

Finally, to tie this to the Adirondack Scenic Railroad debate, I will note Otto Vondrak's post earlier this year saying that the S and NC no longer had to provide trains that connected with Amtrak trains at Saratoga because there were very few passengers who actually transferred to trains to North Creek. This is despite that is a "straight shot" from Albany and NYC. Lake Placid may be a better-known destination than North Creek, but I doubt many will go 100 miles out of their way and spend a night in Utica to ride the train to Lake Placid.

Tony, where do I begin?

You are no expert on freight operations. If 5 car freight trains were automatic money losers, then some shortlines in western NY would be out of business. The DL&W (both divisions), A&A and NY&LE all survive on relatively modest car counts, Speaking of the A&A, they seem to be able balance a modest freight business with 50+ years of excursions far from the scenic beauty of the Adirondacks. That's why I have to chuckle when you doubt the long term viability of Iowa Pacific's operation on the S&NC. If the paper mill in Corinth is reactivated, freight car counts could grow quite a bit.

While the S&NC determines the rate it charges the shipper, the final price of the garnet tailings is set by the shipper itself. S&NC isn't selling anything in Massachusetts!

I would also argue that Lake Placid is a much better known destination that North Creek or Coirinth. In addition to the Olympic history, Lake Placid is heavily marketed. No doubt you see the ads, too. That would make it a sensible draw for a passenger train. Well, it would make sense to folks who aren't trying to tear up a rail line after a friend got busted running hazmat illegally on it.

Matt,
The paper mill you mention in Corinth is gone, demolished. Is there talk of building a new one??

Matt,
Thanks for your response. I have followed the fortunes of rail freight operations through the decline in the 60s and 70s to the current revitalization with deregulation. I therefore think I have some reason to question the viability of the tailings shipments from Tahawus and by extension the viability to the S&NC operation.

From looking at the information I could find on the web, all of your cited railroads operate 50 miles or less. The Arcade and Attica operates steam, which is a good draw for tourists absence any scenery. The S&NC tailings operation requires four round trips of 50+ miles to get the 20 cars to North Creek where they must then travel 50 miles to the interchange. Then there are payments to CP and CSX for the final delivery. Good gravel, while very useful, is not a highly valued commodity and is therefore almost exclusively locally sourced. I am therefore still not convinced that this movement is not somehow subsidized by IPH for the sake of showing movement.

As another poster mentioned, the paper mill in Corinth is not coming back.

The ASR business plan has a proposed schedule for full corridor operations. The business plan uses the phrase "cross platform transfers" at least eight times. Unfortunately, a check of the Amtrak schedules when compared to the ASR schedule does not permit any useful "cross platform transfers". Travelers from New York would have to spend a night in Utica in order to get to Lake Placid. So seriously, would there be a daily trainload traveling to Lake Placid under that schedule?

I probably should have said this sooner, but there's no reason any of us should try to edicate Mr. Trollwin. Just bear in mind how clueless he is and use it when refuting his nonsense to folks like the state in discussions on other topics. Educating him on all the ways he's wrong just gives him the ability to make a better argument against your cause.

Tony Goodwin wrote:Matt,
Thanks for your response. I have followed the fortunes of rail freight operations through the decline in the 60s and 70s to the current revitalization with deregulation. I therefore think I have some reason to question the viability of the tailings shipments from Tahawus and by extension the viability to the S&NC operation.

From looking at the information I could find on the web, all of your cited railroads operate 50 miles or less. The Arcade and Attica operates steam, which is a good draw for tourists absence any scenery. The S&NC tailings operation requires four round trips of 50+ miles to get the 20 cars to North Creek where they must then travel 50 miles to the interchange. Then there are payments to CP and CSX for the final delivery. Good gravel, while very useful, is not a highly valued commodity and is therefore almost exclusively locally sourced. I am therefore still not convinced that this movement is not somehow subsidized by IPH for the sake of showing movement.

As another poster mentioned, the paper mill in Corinth is not coming back.

The ASR business plan has a proposed schedule for full corridor operations. The business plan uses the phrase "cross platform transfers" at least eight times. Unfortunately, a check of the Amtrak schedules when compared to the ASR schedule does not permit any useful "cross platform transfers". Travelers from New York would have to spend a night in Utica in order to get to Lake Placid. So seriously, would there be a daily trainload traveling to Lake Placid under that schedule?

If you are going to level an accusation against IPH, I would like to see proof.

Second, you missed my point about the A&A. The majority of their revenue comes from passenger excursions, rather than freight service. True, their draw is based on #18... but S&NC and the Adirondack Scenic each have a beautiful route through the Adirondacks. If properly marketed, each of them should be a major passenger draw.

Oh BTW, the A&A doesn't need an Amtrak connection to draw passengers.


P.S. The former mill site at Corinth could be handy for an other manufacturing concern.

Matt Langworthy wrote:

Tony Goodwin wrote: Second, you missed my point about the A&A. The majority of their revenue comes from passenger excursions, rather than freight service. True, their draw is based on #18... but S&NC and the Adirondack Scenic each have a beautiful route through the Adirondacks. If properly marketed, each of them should be a major passenger draw.

Oh BTW, the A&A doesn't need an Amtrak connection to draw passengers.

The definition of "majority" is over 50% which makes the statement above correct, but the revenues from the passenger and the freight operations are a lot closer than some people think. The A&A draws people who love steam engines, people who love the nice scenery the route goes through, and people who are looking for an affordable train trip in general. I won't comment on either of the other lines above.

This is my last post on this. Didn't someone say insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

Tony you need to get off the viability of the SNC operation. It is operating in the black without freight right now. It would be mush easier with freight hence the push to get the freight operations up and running. This content harping that there business is failing is getting very old and just because you say it's failing doesn't make it true.

The second item is you have no proof that the transaction involving the movement of 8,000 tons of stone isn't financially beneficial to SNC and/or IPH. And I'm going to head you off and say I don't have any concrete proof it does, but there are very real indications it is. IPH as parent of SNC has investers that would not look kindly to the wasteful spending of money. Remember you don't need to make a profit on something to be financially beneficial, you can do that by lowering fixed cost, like the purchase of ballast. Further do we really know if Mass Coastal is the buyer. I'm not saying they are not, I just don't recall seeing any reference to that in what I've read. Does anyone know for sure?

You seem so determined to see SNC fail and don't say you don't because your posting history says otherwise. SNC is a business that has brought jobs to the area. The people they employ spend their money in local communities and pay taxes which help pay for the trails. They pay a fee to the county and Corinth, owners of the tracks. They also pay the taxes on the property and maintenance costs. These can all be confirmed if you read the county meeting notes dealing with the contract. Plus they bring several thousand visitors to North Creek every year where they can spend their money in the local businesses. I've been to North Creek on the train several times, and ALL the business I've talked to say they have noticed an increase in business activity on days the trains run. Are you really so selfish you want to see a business fail? I try and support local businesses and don't want to see any go away. I don't know if you own a business or not but even though I don't agree with your constant Debbie Downer attitude I wouldn't wish your business to fail.

As I said in the beginning my last post on this. I'm a glass half full type guy.
Don