Proposed E-line extension Heath St. to Hyde Sq.

Agreed that this is all day dreaming at this point. However, having said that, I don't think that it hurts to have an educated public - particularly an educated advocacy group who has a background of the possibilities who can voice them when the time comes.
novitiate - do you mean "CNG" useage at the Arborway and not "GLX" ? If you mean "Green Line Extension", the Arborway always has been it's own base for it's lines primarily south of Forest Hills. This is due mostly due to it's lengthy street running to get to it. As far as an otherwise overall base, I think that Riverside would be better located. CNG (Compressed Natural Gas) and enclosed or electrified ceilings are non co-existant due to the gas's property of rising as it is lighter than air. Specially ventilated buildings must be built for this use and is the big reason why the Arborway was not used for CNG maintenance previously.

He's referring to the Somerville facility housing equipment for use on the E branch as Lechmere does today. Naturally, if Arborway were reconnected, that would make more sense. If both situations are to occur (wouldn't that be a godsend?), the Somerville facility will be centrally located enough to house equipment from another line, or simply serve as a secondary facility for all lines collectively not unlike what the Res does in relation to Riverside.

I do certainly agree with Newpylong's point that something is better than nothing, and that we're daydreaming as Paul puts it. However deeming the rest of the line unnecessary is blatantly wrong in my opinion.

CRail wrote:He's referring to the Somerville facility housing equipment for use on the E branch as Lechmere does today. Naturally, if Arborway were reconnected, that would make more sense. If both situations are to occur (wouldn't that be a godsend?), the Somerville facility will be centrally located enough to house equipment from another line, or simply serve as a secondary facility for all lines collectively not unlike what the Res does in relation to Riverside.

She, but yes, that's what I was referring to. And yeah, I imagine the T could always find a use for a facility... I suppose they might prefer not to turn the E in Somerville if it's extended all the way to Forest Hills.

CRail wrote:I do certainly agree with Newpylong's point that something is better than nothing, and that we're daydreaming as Paul puts it. However deeming the rest of the line unnecessary is blatantly wrong in my opinion.

I agree that the rest of the line is necessary too. To say that the line is too close to the Orange Line raises the question of why exactly the 39 bus has among the highest ridership in the system and is targeted as needing improvements even among opponents of E restoration- and not all of that ridership is coming from Hyde Square.

CRail wrote:He's referring to the Somerville facility housing equipment for use on the E branch as Lechmere does today. Naturally, if Arborway were reconnected, that would make more sense. If both situations are to occur (wouldn't that be a godsend?), the Somerville facility will be centrally located enough to house equipment from another line, or simply serve as a secondary facility for all lines collectively not unlike what the Res does in relation to Riverside.

I do certainly agree with Newpylong's point that something is better than nothing, and that we're daydreaming as Paul puts it. However deeming the rest of the line unnecessary is blatantly wrong in my opinion.

I could also see this being the impetus to lay D-to-E connecting track to Brookline Village (which could use River Rd. and the parking lot across from the Pearl St./Brookline Ave. intersection to avoid the Huntington/Brookline light). Most practically, as a non-revenue connection allowing easier equipment shuttles from east or west that don't tie up the whole of the Central Subway. But also as a way of divvying up service patterns at peak hours. Pre-1985 on-peak service ran a mix of E Heath St. and E Arborway before reverting to Arborway-only off-peak. E Brookline Village (or Reservoir) + E Hyde Sq. firing simultaneously at peak increases service levels on the heaviest-ridership stops without overloading South Huntington. And flushes the Union Branch fuller on the other end of the line.


I agree if you're going to Hyde Sq. that Forest Hills becomes almost an inevitability as a later second phase. But if they wanted to do Hyde and D-to-E in a package that's probably the biggest overall bang-for-buck with the service pattern and equipment flex it would buy.

In the interests of repeated full disclosure, I grew up on Moraine Street in JP, attended the M.E. Curley, the Old New Agassiz, and then Latin, so -- at the age of 70 -- Center-Doors, Type 5s, PCCs, Dallas Cars, and the occasional bus are an honored part of my curriculum vitae.
Please spend some time gearth-surfing from the Centre-S.Huntington-Boylston-Moraine intersection to South and Forest Hills. You'll find a number of things: Centre and South are markedly narrower than South Huntington and Huntington; there is no space to establish island running; and the rails has been paved over. If light-rail service were to be seriously considered, there would be not a NIMBY reaction but a NOOS reaction -- Not On Our Streets. Pavement would need to be removed, roadbed that had not gotten serious attention since the 1950s would need to be rehabilitated and resurfaced, overhead and feeders would have to be reinstalled, all in a period of time most assuredly not instantaneous. Those few miles of Jamaica Plain businesses and homes would be disrupted for more than a year -- assuming a full blitz -- and the justifiable political uproar would not be something that a new mayor or a shaky DOT would be happy to deal with.

I agree with Novitiate's earlier post that we should be concentrating on the new short extension to Hyde Square. If it is a success, it would help convince the "powers that be" to extend the line all the way to Arborway. That last phase will probably require some out-of-the-box solutions such as single-track on one curbside of narrow Centre Street.

But first things first. You really should make an effort to get to the panel discussion with Fred Salvucci Thursday night at the Connelly Library beginning at 7:00 PM. Let's see how confident they are the making the extension to Hyde Square a reality.

newpylong wrote:Are you actually proposing putting it through the park, above and to the side of the trench? The only room there is, and that is if there is room, would be on the east side, and that would mean moving the path to the other side near Green. Pigs have a better chance of flying. Can you imagine the pushback from this proposal? You also would be leaving out the riders to the west.

No need to run the tracks through the park - just deck over the Orange Line and build them on top of that.

MBTA3247 wrote:

newpylong wrote:Are you actually proposing putting it through the park, above and to the side of the trench? The only room there is, and that is if there is room, would be on the east side, and that would mean moving the path to the other side near Green. Pigs have a better chance of flying. Can you imagine the pushback from this proposal? You also would be leaving out the riders to the west.

No need to run the tracks through the park - just deck over the Orange Line and build them on top of that.

Got it. I think without doubt that would blow the project cost out of the water. What was the purpose of a southwest corridor routing vs the old South Street route? Just to avoid street running?

Yeah people, here's something that actually makes sense. I mean, I suggested it ten years
ago when the Arborway controversy was raging, (I was doing a noise and vibration study on
the line then) saying that at least you got it within walking distance of most of JP (I mean,
anyone who wanted to shove 3 car Green Line trains down Centre Street had to be crazy).
Hope this gets some traction; it's a pretty good compromise, IMHO.

Based on the map above, the proposed extension is to Canary Square, not Hyde Square?

wicked wrote:Based on the map above, the proposed extension is to Canary Square, not Hyde Square?

Either one. Turn at Perkins st and loop around Hyde sq., or dead end at Canary sq. Or maybe turn around at Canary and go back to Hyde sq and through Perkins. They're throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks.

I like your second idea...though would that big loop then become defunct and wasted if they ever extend it beyond Canary?

Again, I think either location is a huge win and a good start.

Interesting meeting tonight. First a video titled "Portland: A Sense of Place" which detailed how the construction of streetcar routes revived a dead core and lead to a prosperous, pedestrian-oriented city. But I really don't think you can equate JP with Portland, OR as the operating conditions are so different: wide streets with less traffic, running on one-way streets, less extreme weather temperatures, etc.

Next followed a panel discussion that included Fred Salvucci (currently a professor at MIT). End-of-the-line considerations include reversing direction by changing ends right on So. Huntington at Canary Square or looping on either Perkins or Barbara Street, options suggested on this forum. The loop ideas would bring the trolleys closer to Hyde Square, more desirable. Legal support for the extension is rooted in the mitigation measures that were agreed upon for the Big Dig. These measures included the GLX extension to Medford, resumption of Arborway trolley service, extension of the Blue Line to Lynn, improvements on the Purple CR Line through Dorchester to Readville, etc. Most of these should have been completed by now, but only two are just getting started. Salvucci, who negotiated these agreements way back when, says we are still owed these projects and the extension to Hyde Square is part of the Arborway agreement that can actually be done. He is in touch with Peter Meade, head of the BRA, and has Meade's support as representative of the City of Boston, something that was missing for the Arborway extension. Much has yet to be done (funding?) but this is a good organized start.

Maybe they can grab some cash, I mean sponsorship from the Whole Foods , and Jim Koch of the Adams family, whose beer laboratory is just a hop ,skip , and jump away. Maybe they can chip in and buy a trolley together.

Mr. Koch practically has his own Orange line stop lol