Proposed Boston - Concord, NH Route Discussion

Since Amtrak plans to have a service running from Boston North Station to Concord, NH by the 2030s (at least according to their 2035 map released a few months ago) while at the same time the MBTA is potentially going to extend their Lowell Line service to Manchester, NH (18 miles south of Concord), would they theoretically run together with the MBTA serving as the cheaper and more frequent service for potential Manchester and Nashua riders, while the Amtrak serves as the only option for potential Concord riders, while serving as the faster and more comfortable option for potential Manchester and Nashua riders? It may also be worth noting that both projects (though more so the MBTA proposition) have attracted fierce opposition from NH libertarians.

-Thanks

Should they both come to pass, yes, I see it as a similar situation as with the existing Downeaster, which is the "nicer" option for commuting in from Haverhill. Presumably the new Concord Amtrak service would share the same stop in Woburn that the Downeaster uses, then stop in Lowell, Nashua, (maybe MHT), Manchester and Concord.

Mist likely, but I feel Amtrak is doing the job of commuter railroads by providing relatively short trips. Since they're run by Amtrak, that's going to be fewer trains along the route when compared to commuter railroads since the latter usually received more focused funding and can therefore provide more frequent service. Amtrak's Philly to Reading proposal was originally served entirely by SEPTA, and their NY to Scranton service was originally proposed by NJT, albeit delayed by that commuter railroad for decades. This is a lost opportunity for amtrak to expand further along the routes of its predecessors, such as expanding the Scranton Service to Buffalo along the route of the Phoebe Snow or Black Diamond via Binghamtom and Ithaca respectively, or even continuing service from Reading to Harrisburg. Or even better yet, Boston to Montreal Service past Concord! Plenty of proposals have discussed that route for years, but the Connects us map never included it.

It ought to go farther: all the way to White River Junction. Yes, I know the track has been gone since the 1980s, but the ROW has been preserved.

A rail connection to Boston would be a great economic boon to the upper Connecticut valley.

Concord, NH is over 70 rail miles from Boston, slightly longer than the trip to Wickford Junction in RI which is currently the only other long-haul commuter service the MBTA offers. The next longest is just under 55 (Wachusett) and the new South Coast Rail lines under construction are about the same distance. Downtown Manchester to North Station would be around 58 rail miles.

Trinnau wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 9:05 pm Concord, NH is over 70 rail miles from Boston, slightly longer than the trip to Wickford Junction in RI which is currently the only other long-haul commuter service the MBTA offers. The next longest is just under 55 (Wachusett) and the new South Coast Rail lines under construction are about the same distance. Downtown Manchester to North Station would be around 58 rail miles.

North Station to Concord is exactly 73.3 miles, while South Station to Wickford Junction is exactly 62.9 miles, if the MBTA Commuter Rail were to assume services over the entire planned Capitol Corridor route, the new Concord Line would be 10.4 miles longer than the few Providence trains that actually go all the way to Wickford Junction, easlily making it the longest route in the system, but not enough so that it would be entirely ridiculous for regular Commuter Rail service. Amtrak Intercity service would likely see lower travel times, but at a cost of lower service frequencies, while Commuter Rail service would likely see slightly higher travel times, but with the benefit of higher service frequencies. Since both operators seem to have their eyes on someday running this route, I believe that in the near future this could be a topic of debate.

Pensyfan19 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:28 pm Mist likely, but I feel Amtrak is doing the job of commuter railroads by providing relatively short trips. Since they're run by Amtrak, that's going to be fewer trains along the route when compared to commuter railroads since the latter usually received more focused funding and can therefore provide more frequent service. Amtrak's Philly to Reading proposal was originally served entirely by SEPTA, and their NY to Scranton service was originally proposed by NJT, albeit delayed by that commuter railroad for decades. This is a lost opportunity for amtrak to expand further along the routes of its predecessors, such as expanding the Scranton Service to Buffalo along the route of the Phoebe Snow or Black Diamond via Binghamtom and Ithaca respectively, or even continuing service from Reading to Harrisburg. Or even better yet, Boston to Montreal Service past Concord! Plenty of proposals have discussed that route for years, but the Connects us map never included it.

I'll agree, these very short train routes should be better serviced by commuter rail trains. But that ignores the reason why so few of these have been implemented by commuter rail agencies over so many years - that these short routes extend beyond the taxing authority of the commuter rail agencies. Amtrak is not faced with major problems simply by crossing a state line.

First, when is reality going to set in around here that the ConnectUS coloring book with its connect the dots map was simply an exercise that every agency in town prepared for the new Administration to show off their "worthiness".

Now with that having been said, if Boston-Concord is to be developed, that belongs to the "T". I would think worst case would be a "Live Free or Die" reaction as to NNEPRA and the Downeaster, where there to my knowledge, are no intrastate passengers handled.

I hold same regarding Phila-RDG belonging to SEPTA.

So with this set forth; gee why can't we extend up to and along the Lake's West shore to Merideth, so I can go visit my '51-'54 summer camp in Center Harbor?

Of historical interest, this is how the Northward trip to camp was completed Concord to Center Harbor. Apparently, a "doodlebug" would show up in Concord some two hours after the "State of Maine" (handled NY-Concord Pullman lines). That was "too long" for 10-12yos to be "inactive". Returning home after the season, the Pullmans were on a train originating in Plymouth.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:26 am First, when is reality going to set in around here that the ConnectUS coloring book with its connect the dots map was simply an exercise that every agency in town prepared for the new Administration to show off their "worthiness".

Now with that having been said, if Boston-Concord is to be developed, that belongs to the "T". I would think worst case would be a "Live Free or Die" reaction as to NNEPRA and the Downeaster, where there to my knowledge, are no intrastate passengers handled.

I hold same regarding Phila-RDG belonging to SEPTA.

So with this set forth; gee why can't we extend up to and along the Lake's West shore to Merideth, so I can go visit my '51-'54 summer camp in Center Harbor?

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I agree that the route should go to the T because Intercity frequency on a line with as much potential as this is simply not going to cut it in my opinion, although it seems to me like the MBTA proposition has garnered more opposition, its likely that AFP NH will go after both either way, and there is no calming them down. as likely as it is that MBTA service will be slower, there is no denying that the higher frequency of service it will bring with it as opposed to Amtrak service is a benefit, a major one at that. But in any case, a train running from Boston to at least Manchester, NH sounds great to me.

Whether something is officially commuter rail or intercity rail is more about how it is funded than who is operating it. For example the Hartford Line in Connecticut is partially operated by Amtrak with additional state funded and branded round trips operated by a private operator. Because this program was funded by the HSIPR Program it is officially an intercity rail corridor as far as the federal government goes even though its operated like a commuter corridor with lower fares, and CTrail trains using commuter rail rolling stock. Both make all the stops, and use the same fares. Decisions in whether to use Amtrak or to operate it as a regional service with a private operator is more about cost sharing, fare box recovery, and access to infrastructure.

Amtrak makes sense in many cases because of their statutory right to access freight territory - the freight railroads can simply say no if another operator is involved. Massachusetts is looking at East-West service and has decided that Amtrak is the best way to go because they are best suited to negotiate with CSX for access to the B&A rail line west of Worcester. I don't know much about the tracks heading up to Concord but these sorts of issues likely go into any kind of decision. NH is also outside the T's area of jurisdiction - and with the distance they likely have to go after intercity funding sources -now that doesn't mean that MassDOT can't hire Keolis to do this as an extension to existing T service. Number of stops, stations, cost of fares, and frequencies is somewhat irrelevant to that classification and is more about how much the state(s) want to spend on the route and how much fare box recovery they want.

Pensyfan19 wrote: ↑Thu Dec 16, 2021 2:28 pm Or even better yet, Boston to Montreal Service past Concord! Plenty of proposals have discussed that route for years, but the Connects us map never included it.

Maybe it has something to do with the fact that the last remaining tracks connecting Concord to Montreal have been gone a decade longer than you've been alive.

"You can't get theyah from heah!"

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:26 am Now with that having been said, if Boston-Concord is to be developed, that belongs to the "T". I would think worst case would be a "Live Free or Die" reaction as to NNEPRA and the Downeaster, where there to my knowledge, are no intrastate passengers handled.

....

So with this set forth; gee why can't we extend up to and along the Lake's West shore to Merideth, so I can go visit my '51-'54 summer camp in Center Harbor?

For clarity, there are no restrictions relating to Downeaster travel strictly within New Hampshire; the only such limit on the route prohibits travel strictly between Woburn and Boston. Tickets with an endpoint in New Hampshire and none in Maine do carry a higher cost per mile to reflect NH's lack of contribution to the service.

As regards your second point, "see you at Haht's!"

Or even better yet, Boston to Montreal Service past Concord! Plenty of proposals have discussed that route for years, but the Connects us map never included it.

As another poster noted, the tracks are long gone, and there are geometry problems. With apologies for those that live in communities along the old Northern, there's also not much between Concord and Lebanon, NH. Vermont is already supported by a train, and the need for a Boston to Montreal connection seems somewhat dubious.

If the state of NH were to invest in anything rail-related beyond Concord, an extension to Lincoln would at least serve much more of the state's population and could serve passengers originating from and traveling to in-state destinations.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:26 am Now with that having been said, if Boston-Concord is to be developed, that belongs to the "T". I would think worst case would be a "Live Free or Die" reaction as to NNEPRA and the Downeaster, where there to my knowledge, are no intrastate passengers handled.

The Downeaster certainly handles intrastate passengers. A lot of people use it as a Boston - Haverhill express train, and the state of Maine has been making noises about adding a run for Wells -Portland commuting.

The Downeaster receives no support from MA or NH, only from ME; yet a lot of passengers use it between Haverhill, Exeter, Durham, or Dover and Boston.

Agree that this route is far too short to be considered a long distance one. The journey time issue could be dealt with through stopping patterns - either peak fasts, or two tiers of service, if demand would justify it. I would think an hourly inner and hourly regional could be viable, with connections at Lowell.

It seems like it should have good usage. Yes NH does things a bit differently, but there are three medium sized places along the new route - has to add up to something.