Premature abandoments(?)

necr3849 wrote:While no part of it has been abandoned except branches, one has to wonder how much of the Central Vermont would be in this category of "premature..." if the New Haven ever got its hands on it.

I don't think the New Haven had a "snowball's chance" of getting its hands on the Central Vermont. Even if they did the CV would have been an ideal route for northern connections for the New Haven. Back in the New Haven and Central Vermont days the CV had a very efficient through freight operation with two round trips daily between New London and White River Junction with engine and train crews running right through. This was pretty good for the 40's and 50's especially with a not particularly fast Southern Division of the CV and a lot of 30 MPH and 40 MPH running. Had the New Haven owned the trackage north out of New London it would have been a definate asset at least all through the New Haven times until 1969, after that all bets would have been off.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:

necr3849 wrote:While no part of it has been abandoned except branches, one has to wonder how much of the Central Vermont would be in this category of "premature..." if the New Haven ever got its hands on it.

I don't think the New Haven had a "snowball's chance" of getting its hands on the Central Vermont. Even if they did the CV would have been an ideal route for northern connections for the New Haven. Back in the New Haven and Central Vermont days the CV had a very efficient through freight operation with two round trips daily between New London and White River Junction with engine and train crews running right through. This was pretty good for the 40's and 50's especially with a not particularly fast Southern Division of the CV and a lot of 30 MPH and 40 MPH running. Had the New Haven owned the trackage north out of New London it would have been a definate asset at least all through the New Haven times until 1969, after that all bets would have been off.
Noel Weaver

The Central Vermont went bust in 1896. At that point it had leased and operated the Rutland for 25 years. The Grand Trunk Railway bought the CV. The Rutland was separated and came under the control of the New Haven; there were plans to develop a new through route from New York to Montreal via the Danbury Branch, the Berkshire and either the Rutland's "Corkscrew" from Chatham or trackage rights on the B&A's North Adams branch to a connection to Hoosick Jct (never been clear of the actual route Morgan & Mellen intended to use.) Bottom line is I think the CV may have been *the* only line in Southern New England in which the Consolidated had no interest...

Why would they have needed it? They had use of the B&M in NH/VT and the Norwich & Worcester on the opposite side(s) of the river.

Cosmo wrote:Why would they have needed it? They had use of the B&M in NH/VT and the Norwich & Worcester on the opposite side(s) of the river.

It's called the long haul. Instead of handing off freight to the Boston & Maine at Springfield they could have handled it all the way to the Canadian Border where it would have gone to the Canadian National. The Norwich Branch and the Central Vermont were totally separate and had no relationship neither in the NHRR days nor in today's operations either.
Noel Weaver

Noel Weaver wrote:

Cosmo wrote:Why would they have needed it? They had use of the B&M in NH/VT and the Norwich & Worcester on the opposite side(s) of the river.

It's called the long haul. Instead of handing off freight to the Boston & Maine at Springfield they could have handled it all the way to the Canadian Border where it would have gone to the Canadian National. The Norwich Branch and the Central Vermont were totally separate and had no relationship neither in the NHRR days nor in today's operations either.
Noel Weaver

There was a relationship prior to the NHRR operation of the Norwich Branch. The Norwich & Worcester obtained trackage rights on the New London, Willimantic & Palmer and successor New London Northern from Norwich to New London. The trackage rights were continued by the Boston, Hartford & Erie and the New York & New England. A connecting track was built between the two roads in Norwich. When the NHRR took over the NY&NE they immediately stated building an extension from Norwich/Allyn's Point to Groton. When the extension was completed in 1899 the NHRR abandoned the trackage rights, The connector in Norwich was not abandoned until 1966.

I don't think the connection between the New Haven and the Central Vermont survived until 1966. There were both clearance and weight restrictions on that track and they had an excellent interchange at New London and a reasonable interchange at Willimantic as well. I remember working jobs between Cedar Hill and Worcester back in the early 60's and asking about that connection and was told by a couple of old times that at that time it hadn't been used in years.
Noel Weaver

"Survived" as in "not ripped out."
But I do stand corrected in that the connection from Norwich to NL on the East side of the river was not completed until later, but the NH didn't waste any time making the trackage rights redundant. Remember, it was shortly after that the GT began planning the SNE project to gain access to Providence and (they hoped) Boston free of New Haven trackage. It was all over trackage rights on the NH, and the CV was "landlocked" by the NH in CT. Meanwhile, the NH had it's own agreements with the B&M North of there, so again, why would they need the redundant (and, until the early teens, incomplete) routing over the CV?
The CV was more envious of NH trackage than the other way around.

Ronald Dale Karr's The Rail Lines of Southern New England lists the abandonment of the Norwich & Worcester "Norwich Connection" as 1966 (p.106).

Lines usually fall into disuse years before they're abandoned. The Mass EOT put out a statewide ROW map that lists numerous inactive rights of way as OOS when they haven't seen a train in my lifetime. Abandoned in '66 could mean last used in the 50s.

Cosmo wrote:Why would they have needed it? They had use of the B&M in NH/VT and the Norwich & Worcester on the opposite side(s) of the river.

Strict necessity doesn't seem to have been the governing criteria for many of the New Haven's acquisitions in the 1890-1910 era...

"Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the Shepaug, Litchfield & Northern Railroad!"

Ok, so when did the CT/NLN fall unto the possession of the GT?
(My point being that the NH would have had to fight them for it after that point in time.)

The Grand Trunk took over the Central Vermont (including the line to New London) in 1899.

Bingo!

A premature abandonment IMHO was the New Haven's midland Route that went from Hartford to Willimantic. Penn Central, wanted to tear up the route, but Ella Grasso (who I knew) didn't want it done, but one night, PC ripped up the line.

I think if the New Haven was not included in the PC, I think the Maybrook line and the Midline route would be active. At least ion my (model RR world) it is. The HRR, has Maybrook, The CSO/NEC has the Midland...and the New Haven (which is in my world) survived and bought the B&M, Maine Central, the O&W and parts of the Erie, L&NE and the M&NJ.

FLRailFan1 wrote:A premature abandonment IMHO was the New Haven's midland Route that went from Hartford to Willimantic. Penn Central, wanted to tear up the route, but Ella Grasso (who I knew) didn't want it done, but one night, PC ripped up the line.

I think if the New Haven was not included in the PC, I think the Maybrook line and the Midline route would be active. At least ion my (model RR world) it is. The HRR, has Maybrook, The CSO/NEC has the Midland...and the New Haven (which is in my world) survived and bought the B&M, Maine Central, the O&W and parts of the Erie, L&NE and the M&NJ.

If all of the above survived to more recent times I ask where do you think the freight business would come from to insure the survival of these particular routes? The simple issue is that the freight business that kept these lines in operation is no longer there, it is simply gone, industries closed, shippers and receivers of freight are gone but the maintenance, taxes and other costs would still be around. Without the Poughkeepsie Bridge the Maybrook Line had very little business, the O & W was a gone goose many years before its finale in 1957 and the Midland had grades, little business and other operating problems and with the mergers it was certainally not needed.
Let's face it, without Metro-North and Amtrak there would be much less railroad milage in Southern Connecticut and especially Connecticut. I think it is possible that there might be more abandonments in Southern New England down the road.
Noel Weaver