Rail Related Development in Northern New England

From the Burlington article-

Burlington’s transload site might nudge more local industries to take the train — particularly with newly streamlined procedures for collaborative funding, said Trini Brassard, the VTrans assistant director of operations. Hebda seconded the locomotion. “In the past, this sort of thing would have taken forever,” he said.

What are these "streamlined procedures for collaborative funding" they speak of and how can we get them in Maine? Now THATS pie-in-the-sky dreaming for ya!

Mike,
How did you calculate the Google Maps location? Everything that I've read leads me to believe that the rail line goes right through their property.
Again, from their website-http://www.fewoodenergy.com/7.html

This rail line runs right through our current site, and would provide access to our product from any market across the United States.

Quoted from the "Mountain Division" thread-

by ferroequinarchaeologist » Thu Oct 28, 2010 10:51 am
>>We need to move past the idea that citizens will somehow manage money better than the government.<<

Ah, yes ... we are the government; we're smarter than you. We know how you should live your life. Just ask us. Mr. Alinsky, I presume?

I think it is appropriate to remember that the current healthy state of railroading in the United States is almost exclusively attributable to the Staggers Act passed thirty years ago, which removed government over-regulation from the industry. The future, on the other hand, seems to be benefiting from private-public cooperation in such efforts as CSX and NS are successfully pursuing to improve Atlantic coast-to-Midwest rail corridors. This latter strikes me as not too different from the financing of the original railroads - some money from stock and bond purchases by individuals and municipalities, some from state governments as either grants or loans.

As for northern Maine's predicament - I had relatives and friends living in Gouldsboro, Danforth, and Dexter, so I'm a little familiar with the local atmosphere - a significant portion of this can be attributed to the federal government assistance (i.e., money) to Idaho in the years following WW II to help that state in developing potatoes as a viable agricultural industry. Maine could not compete with those federal dollars flowing west. Granted, Maine also made the bad decision to go for mass market quantity rather than quality, so Maine potatoes of all species sold cheaply and went into instant mashed potatoes while Idaho sold Russets at premium prices, but the major driver was federal assistance to Idaho.

The Bangor and Aroostook existed because it facilitated the transportation of lumber, paper, and other forest products, and later, potatoes. All of those industries are today - in Maine - hanging by a thread. More and more Mainers are following the seasonal employment routine of cut wood/pick blueberries/sell stuff to tourists/maintain wealthier people's houses in the off season. There's no need for railroad service to support those activities. What's left? - tourism. But that calls for passenger rail, and a whole other set of considerations.

PBM

by gokeefe » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:22 pm

PBM,

I disagree that the forest products industries are 'hanging by a thread'. I don't think this is the case any more so than any other industry in the rest of the country that is dealing with the current economy. Maine's forests are among the best managed in the world and continue to yield the highest quality products that are on the market today. Operations such as the former Great Northern Mill in Millinocket shut down because they weren't efficient enough and required massive quantities of oil in order to run. Operations such as the Verso Paper Mills in Jay and Bucksport are very efficient and as long as they continue to make productivity improvements and incremental modernization they will be viable almost indefinitely.

From everything I have seen, read and discussed here on Railroad.net the rather sudden loss of potato traffic did in fact have a disproportionately negative effect on the B&A. There may come a time in the future where we see potatos go 'back on line'. But as of right now there doesn't appear to be any initiative at present to do so.

Although the situation you describe certainly exists in communities with significant seasonal populations (I know several people who live almost exactly as you described) there are numerous other industries today that also support the economy in Maine.
gokeefe

gokeefe

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by Ridgefielder » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:13 pm

gokeefe wrote:
From everything I have seen, read and discussed here on Railroad.net the rather sudden loss of potato traffic did in fact have a disproportionately negative effect on the B&A. There may come a time in the future where we see potatos go 'back on line'. But as of right now there doesn't appear to be any initiative at present to do so.

Somewhat off-topic, but wasn't the loss of potato traffic actually due to bungling on the part of Penn Central back in the early '70s, rather than any problem indigenous to the BAR/MEC/B&M?
Ridgefielder

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by ferroequinarchaeologist » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:10 am

gok,

>>I disagree that the forest products industries are 'hanging by a thread'.<<

On reflection, I don't see that we have any disgreement on the facts of the situation. Let me put it another way:I am concerned about the viability of the Maine mills going forward (does that sound better? ) because they are, as you stated, dependent on fuel oil, chemicals, and labor costs which are significantly higher than those in Asian countries, or other countries that subsidize the industry (eh?) and there really isn't much that they can do about those issues.

My father-in-law was part of the management team at the Westbrook mill, when it was S.D. Warren (pre-SAPPI) and he pointed out that they specialized in high quality coated paper for magazines and catalogues, and thus were able to survive and occasionally prosper, whereas they could not have competed in the market for tissue or newsprint. I'm am glad to see that you noted that the present-day mills are trying to compete on the basis on quality of product.

Ridgefielder,

You are correct in that the failure of the Penn Central to manage expediting potatoes during one particular season in the 70s was the nail in the coffin, but the coffin had already been built, to mangle metaphors.

PBM
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by gokeefe » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:40 am

PBM,

To my knowledge New Page in Rumford also profits from the same strategy. Some time ago there was some publicity regarding them supplying the paper for 'Oprah' magazine.

Thankfully, wages have started to rise recently in China. This is an 'across the board' trend which I believe will affect their ability to export large quantities of paper products to the U.S. At least for the time being on premium products Maine paper mills may retain their advantage based on location. In regards to efficiency improvements co-generation using biomass, and other methods that turn waste fiber products into energy will likely solve part of the energy equation.

Although chemical costs will rise and fall in tandem with other factors that are almost uncontrollable for the mills at least for now the labor costs are relatively stable. The strike against the mill in Jay in by the United Paperworkers International Union (UPIU) Local #14 in June 1987 is considered a major case study in American labor matters. It coincided to a certain extent with the Brotherhood of Maintenance of Way Engineers strike of 1986 which because it involved a CBA covered under the Railway Labor Act, and the strike's magnitude eventually brought about Presidential involvement.

Having studied both strikes it is my opinion that since that period of time labor costs in Maine, although remaining high, have grown with inflation but not increased dramatically since then. The outcome of both of these labor actions which was ultimately very negative for labor has 'kept the lid' on union wage growth since then. To a certain extent these strikes, which both happenned in Maine, were watershed moments in the American labor market and ushered in a new era in which companies were far more competitive with labor than they previously had been.

I think all of the above issues may speak to a certain extent to why the Mountain Division is suddenly a candidate for reactivation again. Keep in mind the Division was abandoned for many reasons by GTI not the least of which being the cost of Maintenance of Way which at that time (1983-1984) was still being performed by the BMoW under MEC work rules and wages. Obviously the M.D. was redundant to other lines that GTI had acquired around their system as well.

Perhaps that's another interesting twist to the entire story of this rehabilitation, if the MDOT had to pay BMoW wages, and use BMoW work rules to do the rehabilitation would the price suddenly be so high as to be 'unacceptable', especially when PAR is doing line work to Class III or better at $1 million/mile? While I strongly support the right of workers to collectively bargain it is interesting to consider the dynamics involved now that the national economy must compete globally on labor costs. It is even more interesting to realize that at one time the railroads were making so much money and were so profitable that paying the crafts the kind of wages that they were at that time was considered 'reasonable'.

by Ridgefielder » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:12 pm

gokeefe wrote:
Thankfully, wages have started to rise recently in China. This is an 'across the board' trend which I believe will affect their ability to export large quantities of paper products to the U.S. At least for the time being on premium products Maine paper mills may retain their advantage based on location. In regards to efficiency improvements co-generation using biomass, and other methods that turn waste fiber products into energy will likely solve part of the energy equation.

Don't discount the affect a rise in the price of #6 fuel oil would have on Chinese manufacturing competitiveness. If oil goes back to $100/barrel and trans-Pacific freight rates spike as a result, producing a lower-value product domestically is going to look a lot more attractive.
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I must've missed this debate so I figure I'll jump in a little late...

PMB,
Was that a Saul Alinsky reference? I'm just curious since I hear his name pop up every now and again. For whatever reason lately his name always comes up in right-wing conspiracy theories as some sort of proof of a radical socialist agenda. The funny thing is that it rarely comes up in leftist circles, in which he is generally considered an outmoded reformist. Just wondering...

anyways, back to the lecture at hand...

GOKeefe,
I'm afraid I have to agree with PMBs assessment about the forest products industry in Maine, so far as it pertains to the paper industry. Mills are closing down left and right (Gorham N.H just last week closed its doors) and I'm afraid it has less to do with China and/or oil prices and more to do with Brazil and the rapid adoption of digital, paperless reading formats. If the forest products industry in Maine is to survive it is going to take a massive reorientation of the forestry planting/harvesting practices towards a hardwood or possibly, pellet-fuel orientation. While rumors of the death of the paper industry may be premature, business is certainly not growing. Its possible that it may need to contract to the point where it can compete on a more efficient level, but this isnt where I would bet the future of my state.

4266,

The reference was to Saul Alinsky, left-wing nihilist politician and author of Rules for Radicals (1909 - 1972) who advocated destruction of the capitalist system. In this forum, it's just a friendly tweak in response to the earlier government-knows-best comment. Incidentally, our current president was a trainer for the Alinsky Industrial Areas Foundation, but that's a topic for some other forum.

IMHO, the support-for-rails issue always seems to come down to one of (1) should the railroad - or any other enabling resource (highway, airport, dam, pipeline, powerplant) be put in place to attract people and industry (aka the Field of Dreams if-you-build-it-they-will-come approach) or (2) should industry demand and perhaps partially support the railroad after the industry determines that a need has arisen for that service.

Two examples: the transcontinental railroad was built as a federal government policy with only vague economic justification, while railroads in developed areas were targeted at moving people and stuff from one place to another in a less resource-intensive and more efficient manner than other available forms of transportation.

The current situation that obtains in Maine is a little of both. The current users have, in fact, contributed to the support and continued existence of the lines, and now the state and feds are contributing to the restoration of the system to support current business and hopefully attract new.

That said, I still do believe that the long-term outlook for the mills is not good, for the reasons discussed earlier by myself and others. I do think that there is a future for fast passenger service to help develop the County, but while that may be a fine project for a private entrepreneur, it would have to be part of a larger state or federal development strategy to justify spending the taxpayers' money.

A personal thought - you want to end this recession? ... just copy Eisenhower's Interstate and Defense Highways program and apply it to railroads in a creative public/private manner.

Cheers
PBM

Wow! Now I've seen everything! I actually agree word-for-word (when it comes to rail policy) with somebody who thinks Saul Alinsky of all people, is a "leftist nihilist"!
How can somebody with such an perfectly sensible position on rail development buy into such an insane conspiracy theory when it comes to politics? I'm really only keeping up the tweak. nothing serious meant
I think the transcon RR and the Interstate System is the perfect model. I know there are those who maintain that an economic crisis is the wrong time to start spending money on big infrasture projects. Except for the fact that the transcon was started during the Civil War and the Interstate system in the wake of WW2... It's been a long time since this country has truly taken on something on a truly transformative scale.

4266,
To answer your question about where I got the location, I googled the address on the bottom of one of their pages. I could not get an answer from anyone here about if they are in operation yet or not. I'll investigate that myself soon.

Mike

From what I have gathered, they are not yet in operation.

>> I actually agree word-for-word <<

I know it's Hallowe'en, but that is scary.

PBM

From the Kennebec Journal, October 31, 2010, by Mr. Edward D. Murphy, Staff Writer

Calling Friday's event a "groundbreaking" may have been a misnomer, but city and state officials were happy nonetheless to kick off construction of Pier II at Ocean Gateway, a project that will enable Portland to welcome the world's largest cruise ships.

The "megaberth" will stretch east from the Ocean Gateway terminal about 1,100 feet.

That length, combined with the 60-foot depth of the water, should allow the pier to accommodate the largest cruise ships, Mayor Nicholas Mavodones said at the event marking the start of construction.

...

With the new megaberth, not only will the city accommodate larger ships, it will be able to have two ships in port at the same time, city officials said.

http://www.kjonline.com/news/portland-p ... term=ocean

Further information regarding the new Ocean Gateway. Given the size of ships contemplated for port calls at this facility it is getting very hard to believe that some passengers aboard these ships won't be interested in rail trips to Freeport if offered. Trips on the Mountain Division, once it is restored to service, also seem likely. As wide and long as Commercial Street is it cannot accommodate or entertain all of these passengers the entire time. There are plenty of other places in Portland to visit as well, however 8,000 additional tourists in a 24 hours period (4,000/ship) is no small number.

Gokeef
You may be right. After all,those passengers have seen enough water, now they can look at some trees. No scenery to speak of accept for the Saco River. And part of Sebago Lake. More Water. Kind of like a tree tunnel through there now.
Mike

Mike,

More than anything in my mind it's really the numbers. I've been in Bar Harbor when the QM2 was making a port call and the streets were literally packed. They had bus after bus of passengers that were on their way out of the center of the town for various parts of Acadia. Mass transportation whether over road or rail is a critical part of shore operations for the cruise industry. I'm sure, if they haven't already, some enterprising car rental operators might try to 'move-in' on the action as well.

Assuming the City of Portland continues to strongly pursue cruise ship bookings the potential pickup for the Downeaster becomes very substantial once we start seeing the large ships in port. You might even start seeing sellouts on midday trains in the summer. To date I don't think they really have exploited this potential source of ridership. However, that's probably still a function of their location.

Overall the entire picture seems to support rail even more so. It also seems to strongly point towards a very bright future for a Commerical Street Station in Portland. Considering that 'Ocean Berth' is going to be done next year, while the Brunswick extension pushes along into 'high season' for construction. I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised if we start seeing serious proposals for a new station from TRNE, NNEPRA and others somewhere between late next year and perhaps early 2013.

4266 wrote: I'm afraid I have to agree with PMBs assessment about the forest products industry in Maine, so far as it pertains to the paper industry. Mills are closing down left and right (Gorham N.H just last week closed its doors) and I'm afraid it has less to do with China and/or oil prices and more to do with Brazil and the rapid adoption of digital, paperless reading formats. If the forest products industry in Maine is to survive it is going to take a massive reorientation of the forestry planting/harvesting practices towards a hardwood or possibly, pellet-fuel orientation. While rumors of the death of the paper industry may be premature, business is certainly not growing. Its possible that it may need to contract to the point where it can compete on a more efficient level, but this isnt where I would bet the future of my state.

I don't think they're going to digitize toilet paper any time soon...

Seriously, though, that was what I was thinking of in terms of non-US competition being affected by ocean shipping costs was the lower-value product-- toilet paper, paper towels, packaging, etc. I'll admit right here that I know next to nothing about the paper industry per se but I do know that this is a dynamic that functions in other industries (styrofoam packing material, for instance). Brazil would be in the same boat (pun intended) as China in that case. Remember, also, that mills closing may be symptomatic of the lackluster economic performance of the United States in general, not specific to the Maine/New Hampshire paper industry.

Also- my business (I work in the financial services industry) is probably the most computer/digital dependent sector outside of actual computer programming or engineering, yet we seem to go through entire forests worth of paper in a year in my office alone-- try reading a 200 page legal document on a computer and you'll see why. Digital reading formats are not necessarily going to make office paper go away, and in fact I'd argue that advances in printing technologies have lead to greater use of paper for things such as presentations and brochures.

FWIW, I'm not sure the climate of Maine would allow the forestry industry to shift to large-scale hardwood production from softwoods.

4266 wrote:If the forest products industry in Maine is to survive it is going to take a massive reorientation of the forestry planting/harvesting practices towards a hardwood or possibly, pellet-fuel orientation. While rumors of the death of the paper industry may be premature, business is certainly not growing.

conversion to [primarily] hardwoods wouldn't be particularly difficult, and has in fact been happening in maine for decades. while the overstory trees tend to be softwood (when the state is looked at as a whole), regeneration has tended to be hardwoods (predominantly red maple). in the past, the softwood crops produced in maine were in higher relative demand than hardwood crops, so silvicultural practices favoring softwoods were utilized. aerial spraying to eliminate the hardwood competition also occurred on a large scale, contributing to the continued production of softwoods.

as ownership patterns have changed, especially over the past 20 years (paper company lands divested), exclusion of hardwoods has diminished. if hardwoods were to become relatively more desired, forest harvesting practices could be fine-tuned to grow more hardwoods (relative to softwoods).

Ridgefielder wrote: FWIW, I'm not sure the climate of Maine would allow the forestry industry to shift to large-scale hardwood production from softwoods.

climate wouldn't be an issue for growing hardwoods in maine. time to transition to that shift might be measured in a few decades, but it can happen (if desired) relatively easily.

Thank you for that information wally! What do you think it would take to realize the goals outlined in the MEPFA Study http://www.mepfa.org/docs/heatnebiomass ... -pager.pdf 25% of Maine's heating costs from biomass by 2025? What silvicultural practices would be used to achieve this goal? After I commented on the need for more hardwoods in a previous post I noticed that prices for software pellets are generally higher than hardwood. Why is this? I always thought that hardwoods burned hotter and cleaner, like anthracite vs bituminous. Also, I forgot that the premier construction timber in the east is a softwood... The White Pine. Of course, it takes longer cycles for good building timber to grow and paper companies generally didn't like that.

As far as digital reading is concerned... Anybody taken a look at the newspaper industry lately? One would be wise not to underestimate electronic media. I remember friends of mine in the recording industry scoffing at the notion that anybody would abandon CDs. and now... Seen any Tower Records lately? Now of course, this didn't spell the end of the plastics industry but the paper industry has felt enough pressure at least to justify packing up and moving to the equator. Are we heading into a paperless future anytime soon? Probably not. The transition from paper reading to a digital interface requires a bit more sensory adjustment than a simple switch between recorded sound formats. But its happening. Kids in middle school now will probably be reading more off of of a screen than in print by the time they are in college.
That said... I don't see them digitizing toilet paper any time soon... Although that may be the only function that my Dell can handle.

4266 wrote:What do you think it would take to realize the goals outlined in the MEPFA Study http://www.mepfa.org/docs/heatnebiomass ... -pager.pdf 25% of Maine's heating costs from biomass by 2025? What silvicultural practices would be used to achieve this goal? After I commented on the need for more hardwoods in a previous post I noticed that prices for software pellets are generally higher than hardwood. Why is this? I always thought that hardwoods burned hotter and cleaner, like anthracite vs bituminous. Also, I forgot that the premier construction timber in the east is a softwood... The White Pine. Of course, it takes longer cycles for good building timber to grow and paper companies generally didn't like that.

haven't read the study yet, but i'll give it a go sometime soon.

as far as silviculture to attain biomass heat, maine just needs to retain the markets [biomass] for lowgrade wood, which pellets will provide a portion of, along with the capacity to harvest those lowgrade materials. perhaps the second is more important than the first. the capacity is provided by the loggers, landowners, foresters, mills and others who directly and indirectly derive a living from utilization of forest products.

one thing often not realized is that in general, a ton of softwood gives off significantly higher BTUs than a ton of hardwood. however, that ton of softwood requires much more storage capacity, since the wood is less dense and a given ton of softwood occupies more space.

spruce/fir tends to be the premier stud wood for internal construction framing in the northeast. white pine and hemlock do provide some of the source for larger timbers, as for timber framing. pine also has a multitude of non-framing uses, including internal components of door/window stock, cabinetry, flooring, etc.

i'm not sure that i'd advocate a conversion from softwood to hardwood, or hardwood to softwood. rather, i'd advocate growing the species most suited to the particular site, especially in regards to productivity/accretion.

When taking flights from Chicago to Maine, I can tell which is the Portland flight's gate by the age of the passengers. (And I don't mean this as a joke.)

It's interesting to consider the reactions to the paper mill closings on this site. I haven't seen one proposal that government take over and operate the mills, or at least purchase the mills and hold them in mothballs until such time as they can serve the common good again. ("Paperbanking??") I'm going to posit that most folks realize that times have changed, and these mills have unfortunately run their course. After all, business operations have a life cycle. (And, to be sure, the remaining mills in Maine are also subject to this inevitability.) It remains curious to me as to why moribund rail lines are viewed in such a different light.

4266, you make a point that a key Maine challenge is its lack of transportation infrastructure. In what ways is it lacking to the extent that it thwarts industrial growth? (I'd suggest leaving the passenger aspects for another thread.) You also make the point that the Mountain rehab would appear to solve the "problems of transportation." What problems? Poland Spring seems to do ok with hauling water out of non-rail locations. (And, while we're on the topic of water... isn't it ironic that pro-railers promote Poland Spring as a business to be supported, while hawking "green" issues as central to their argument. Shouldn't the pro-railer/environmentalists be supporting Brita filters, instead???)

One thing we'll all agree on: There's no magic bullet to reversing northern New England's economic demise. At the risk of being criticized once again as an MBA bean counter, a SWOT (strengths, weaknesses, opporunities, threats) analysis (a standard strategic planning tool) could help to identify the region's relative competitive position. For instance, a Maine weakness is its geographic position relative to the population centers... it's at the end of the line. That does not bode well for industries that are heavy transportation users, e.g., you ain't gonna get a car maker to site an assembly plant in Maine. A possible opportunity may be improving agricultural output in the County. (Or is this even an opportunity? The state's potato acreage has shrunk 50% in the last 30 years and yield per acre is among the lowest in North America. This would necessitate a SWOT specific to that industry... )