Halting of NJT Projects (Including Tunnel Project)

Roadgeek Adam wrote:

Jishnu wrote:

Roadgeek Adam wrote: Anyway, I know I am on the few Christie-99% of time supporters around here, but my feeling on this is this: If we can't get the tunnel, move the federal funding to new yards and westward expansion. Rebuild Port Morris, build a small yard in Hampton and Washington, West Trenton stuff, etc.

Federal funding does not normally move like that from one project to another. Funding that is not used for the specific project simply goes away and then one starts from square 1 with a whole new NEPA and what nots.

Interesting this wasn't called out when Christie was going to change the projects that would get the money.

It essentially was. He called upon Lautenburg and Menendez to use their considerable clout in the Senate to get the monies reallocated to other projects that are at least nearing their NEPA completion and have reached a ROD or are near.

Regarding the reconstruction of Penn Station and using Farley/Moynihan, that is separate multi-billion dollar project. It just shows that stopping this project as is and moving on to a new project that involves all interested parties, Amtrak, NYC, NJ, the PA, NJT, LIRR (and MN for you Alt G fans) in to one cohesive plan that actually solves the capacity problems, not just moves them around, is really a noble goal.

alewifebp and Jishnu, what's a NEPA?
alewifebp, what's a ROD?

NEPA -National Environmental Protection Act; the legislation that endgendered Environmantal Impact Statements

http://www.epa.gov/compliance/nepa/

ROD?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Military-a ... t/ROD.html

Gilbert B Norman wrote:NEPA -National Environmental Protection Act; the legislation that endgendered Environmantal Impact Statements
ROD?

http://www.acronymfinder.com/Military-a ... t/ROD.html

In this context ROD stands for "Record of Decision"

BTW, I do agree in principle with alewifebp

Thank you Mr. Jishnu - I've now learned some EPAese:
http://www.epa.gov/superfund/sites/rods

While not rail related, here is an EPA Record of Decision (ROD):
http://www.epa.gov/region1/superfund/si ... 469130.pdf

It is very interesting to see LaHood's figures getting very close to Christie's. I am getting optimistic that this will be worked out between the Feds and NJ. The project is "shovel ready" so it may get its fair share of stimulus money.

That would be a [long overdue] win for NJ.

ccutler wrote:It is very interesting to see LaHood's figures getting very close to Christie's. I am getting optimistic that this will be worked out between the Feds and NJ. The project is "shovel ready" so it may get its fair share of stimulus money.

That would be a [long overdue] win for NJ.

That is impossible. The POTUS has said that there is no such thing as shovel-ready projects...

The $ estimates are really moot at this point. Another set of tunnels is needed regardless of the cost. Five years from now the cost will double. Ten years it will double again. Delaying the project only means it will be more expensive.

ccutler wrote:It is very interesting to see LaHood's figures getting very close to Christie's. I am getting optimistic that this will be worked out between the Feds and NJ. The project is "shovel ready" so it may get its fair share of stimulus money.

That would be a [long overdue] win for NJ.

Not to sound too "American pump yourself up" but this is America last time I checked,WE do BIG things. We do enormous projects. If we can't get this stupid tunnel built I'm not sure we can do anything anymore. China is building a high speed rail system throughout the entire country and we can't build a tunnel for low speed commuter trains. I wonder if people had a fit at the cost of the Hoover dam or the Brooklyn bridge? We have not built a tunnel in 100 hundred years. Public works projects like this should be applauded. Its things like this that pulled us out of the "great depression" and today its as controversial anything I've ever seen. Its really quite sad. Its quite sad that America,the United States of America cannot build a tunnel. It quite sad that we blame the wages of the workers on the Tunnel also.

matawanaberdeen wrote:Not to sound too "American pump yourself up" but this is America last time I checked,WE do BIG things. We do enormous projects. If we can't get this stupid tunnel built I'm not sure we can do anything anymore. China is building a high speed rail system throughout the entire country and we can't build a tunnel for low speed commuter trains. I wonder if people had a fit at the cost of the Hoover dam or the Brooklyn bridge? We have not built a tunnel in 100 hundred years. Public works projects like this should be applauded. Its things like this that pulled us out of the "great depression" and today its as controversial anything I've ever seen. Its really quite sad. Its quite sad that America,the United States of America cannot build a tunnel. It quite sad that we blame the wages of the workers on the Tunnel also.

You are absolulely correct, they should be applauded, but they should also make sense. And its questionable if the tunnel project in its current form makes sense. Im NOT a Christie supporter, by any means, but throwing upwards of 10 BILLION dollars at a project which, while NJT has done the best they could with what htey were given, and left with, maybe the Feds can come in, and get everyone to sit down and build it right the first time. (well second time i guess )

The fights going on with this tunnel are really no different than the PRR faced with their building of the original North River tunnels. The more things change, the more they say the same.......but it makes you appreicate just how massive a project the PRR took on, with the building of the North River tunnels, Pennsylvania Station, the East River tunnels AND Sunnyside Yard......

What exactly doesn't make sense about this project? Does it not add capacity to NYC? Does it add a station in NYC for NJT? Does it not upgrade a lot of little things along the way to the tunnel that were sorely needed anyway? So is it the new NJT station that is what people object too? I just don't get it. Its a bold move what is not to like.

Right wrong or whatever by canceling this projects were back 20 years.
Any new plan will take 20 years before funding, Enviomental impact studies etc etc etc are once again to point of construction.
Govenor Christie in his move has tried to govern way beyond his term, as any budget overruns would most likely not have happened in first 4 years.
My question is since when do we elect our officials to predict and govern the future ???

DutchRailnut wrote: My question is since when do we elect our officials to predict and govern the future ???

We've been doing it for years, with unchecked borrowing, bonds, building projects (road, rail, whatever) that don't have existing demand, etc etc etc.

matawanaberdeen wrote: I just don't get it. Its a bold move what is not to like.

Let's see:

* Poor routing with a zigzag tunnel that'll be inherently slow (is the tunnel MAS even going to break 40? The curve right outside it in NJ will be much slower than the existing tunnel).
* A loop around a swamp in NJ, that'll be slow.
* A station right next to an existing station, with poor connections to anything, even the existing station.
* Reliance on an untested, unproven technology to bring at least some trains into it.
* A deep cavern station that'll be a terrorists wet dream come true.
* Unknown, poorly predicted, and potentially gigantic costs that can blow up at a point where tossing in the towel isn't possible.
* The need to build a new Portal Bridge that NJT's not wrapping into the project's costs, AFAIK.
* No guarantee it'll do anything but add some capacity. Nothing to say trip times will actually get shorter, or service quality will improve (It'll certainly NOT improve without a new tunnel, but it could be any tunnel, not this one).
* No hopes to ever expand beyond the existing station.
* No usability for Amtrak, meaning you'd STILL need more tunnels into the existing Penn, especially if Amtrak ever gets serious about HSR in the northeast.

Do you want me to go on? This isn't a "cheap" 100 million dollar project - it's billions - maybe 8, maybe 10, maybe 16, maybe 20 - that'll need to be paid for 100 years from now. And it's a lousy plan where there are better choices out there.

yup other choices but when this tunnel get's redesigned even the right design will then cost 60 billion due to inflation etc.

matawanaberdeen wrote:Ok guys I've stated my position I'm going to leave this thread alone. I gave praise to the Gov. when he said he would give it 2 weeks to think about it. Hopefully he restores the project. Enjoy the rest of the thread.

Later:

matawanaberdeen wrote:Not to sound too "American pump yourself up" but this is America last time I checked,WE do BIG things. We do enormous projects. If we can't get this stupid tunnel built I'm not sure we can do anything anymore. China is building a high speed rail system throughout the entire country and we can't build a tunnel for low speed commuter trains. I wonder if people had a fit at the cost of the Hoover dam or the Brooklyn bridge? We have not built a tunnel in 100 hundred years. Public works projects like this should be applauded. Its things like this that pulled us out of the "great depression" and today its as controversial anything I've ever seen. Its really quite sad. Its quite sad that America,the United States of America cannot build a tunnel. It quite sad that we blame the wages of the workers on the Tunnel also.

So much for leaving the thread alone.