Railroad Forums 

  • R3 Back To West Chester

  • Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.
Discussion relating to Southeastern Pennsylvania Transportation Authority (Philadelphia Metro Area). Official web site can be found here: www.septa.com. Also including discussion related to the PATCO Speedline rapid transit operated by Delaware River Port Authority. Official web site can be found here: http://www.ridepatco.org/.

Moderator: AlexC

 #802266  by CSXT 4617
 
I hope someone, someday convinces SEPTA to resume service to West Chester. Work will have to be done, but it can be done. Besides, U.S. 1 and 202 are always congested during rush hour, but a couple of SEPTA trains from West Chester to Philadelphia could improve conditions so much, that driving between these two places would be easier and by train, you wouldn't have to do the driving and everything would be so easier. Let me know your opinion.
 #802275  by Red Arrow Fan
 
SEPTA's thought process probably is:

If you'll drive to West Chester to take the train to Philly, you can just as easily drive to Exton and take the R5.

If you're in walking distance to the WC train station, you can take the 104 bus. (Yes, it's not a 1-seat ride, and there's many traffic lights along the way, but you're asking SEPTA to expand their system. When's the last time they did that?)
 #802294  by CSXT 4617
 
Well, sure. But, the roads are crowded. We need a chairman who will push for more service to not only make more money, but also to take more cars off the road.
 #802362  by mestevet
 
Some thoughts:

I've never heard folks in the general suburban area around West Chester get real excited about new bus service. But since the word's gotten out about the extension of the line back to Wawa, I've actually heard folks talking about it and getting excited. Folks from the Chadds Ford and Kennett Square areas who wouldn't have considered taking the train from Elwyn because of the drive just much further and past 452/Pennell Rd and Granite Run Mall (where the road traffic gets sticky), WILL take it from Wawa because they don't have to drive that extra distance, and because it's right next to Rt 1.

Perhaps the view IS that West Chester is too close to Exton, and SEPTA feels they have viable alternatives. But I'd dare say that just looking at West Chester itself, and not considering the massive suburban development in the adjacent parts of Chester and Delaware Counties is probably short sighted.

From my own, very limited view of the demographics, another thing to consider is that a lot of folks in the Rt 202 corridor from West Chester south, commute to Wilmington, not Philly. That's where I think the SEPTA system sort of "breaks down" because SEPTA isn't going to fund service into Delaware without DELDot financing, and DELDot isn't going to consider building any transit corridors between Wilmington and West Chester because it's out of state (the closest historical rail lines to that would be the Chester Creek branch from Wawa to Lamokin on the NEC, or perhaps the ex-Reading Wilmington Northern, but the Chester Creek branch is defunct and the ROW washed out in many areas, and the Wilmington Northern is no speedy commuter route, and wouldn't even directly serve West Chester). I'm not sure that anyone would take a line like that between Wilmington and West Chester when driving can be less than half an hour. My point is that additional connections in directions people would want to go would make a line into West Chester a more viable route, but I don't see that happening.

Perhaps another route to consider in taking advantage of the large suburban development in this general area is the Octoraro Branch between Wawa and Chadds Ford. It would certainly be a lot of work to put that back into service (including electrification?). I don't imagine that's on the short list for available funds.

Steve
 #802395  by Matthew Mitchell
 
CSXT 4617 wrote:I hope someone, someday convinces SEPTA to resume service to West Chester.
That someone is gonna have to be the Chester County commissioners, who presently are putting restoration of service to Parkesburg (see DVRPC study) ahead of restoration to West Chester.
 #802399  by limejuice
 
CSXT 4617 wrote:Well, sure. But, the roads are crowded. We need a chairman who will push for more service to not only make more money, but also to take more cars off the road.
If passenger rail made money in the present day economic/political environment, don't you think they'd be running trains everywhere? And why would we need a subsidized government organization to run them? The fact is, every train that runs loses money. More trains means less money. Granted, operating efficiency may be gained by extending service further to put more bodies on a train (and therefore more fares) to a certain extent, but you're also adding fixed costs in terms of track, signal, and station maintenance. At the end of the day, they're still losing money, and any gains (reductions in loss) from increased operational efficiency probably won't cover the finance costs of the organizations share of the expansions capital costs.

If what we want is more service, we need to look to the past when we had decent transportation services and compare it to today. Back then, these services were privately operated, because transporting people was a profitable enterprise. Who was their competition? Well the railroads competed with other railroad companies, and also competed with the trolley/interurban companies. That competition was what motivated these private operators to provide good services. If you lived in Media or West Chester and commuted to Center City, you could take the PRR, or you could take the trolley. If the trolley was too slow for you, you could take the PRR. If the PRR was too expensive, you could take the trolley. But if either one of them pissed you off for whatever reason, you could take the other one. Industry regulation back then wasn't particularly burdensome, and they didn't take a dime of taxes for operating costs until the end of their corporate lives.

Let's fast forward to today. What limited services exist are operated by one taxpayer-subsidized government organization, because it is no longer profitable. Service doesn't go nearly everywhere it used to, and the quality of the service often leaves much to be desired. There's really no competition in terms of mass-transportation services, because they're pretty much the only game in town. Therefore, when they fail to provide you with acceptable service, you have no alternative but to complain. And that does very little to change things. They do, however, compete with an entirely different transportation system, also government operated and much more heavily subsidized - the interstate highway system. Since everyone pays for the system through their taxes, and its costs aren't paid for by users directly, an artificial demand is created - which is what effectively put privately operated passenger rail out of business. Industry regulations these days are evermore burdensome - and in most cases counterintuitive. And of course, the government mass transit services cost plenty of taxpayer dollars.

So here we are with fewer, more limited transportation options, our taxes are too high, and the state is flat broke - worse, in fact due to a ticking time bomb of debt and pension payments - and much of what's left of the infrastructure is falling apart. The Feds just printed a f***ton of cash for ARRA, which mostly went to cronies. Very little went to projects that were in any way meaningful to improving critical infrastructure. The feds can no longer print that kind of money, because there's no one to buy the corresponding debt instruments. Now - Do we ask our government to fix the transportation problems they helped create -OR- Do we demand that the government get out of the transportation business and let the private sector run it the way it was 70 years ago, when service was abundant, of decent quality, and economical.

Makes me really not look forward to health care as I get older...

This has been another ridiculously verbose, politically-tainted rant, brought to you by limejuice.
 #802401  by ekt8750
 
Damn I couldn't have said it better myself.
 #802421  by thegivenup
 
I'm not disagreeing with any of what you said limejuice, but taxes and regulation aside, the government turned its back to the rail industry in the form of regulation and interstate highways. SOME of everyone's money is going to fund a mode that they probably don't use. It would be interested to compare the regulations imposed on railroad companies back in the heyday (1890's - 1930's? ) and compare them to the regulations imposed on powerful companies today.

Back on topic!!!

Having grown up in West Chester and currently living in Philadelphia I would live a line directly home. I don't mind the R5 (especially the expresses), but getting from Paoli or Exton home isn't easy by yourself. I don't mind riding a bus or bike, but it'd be much easier to do from West Chester than Paoli. The growth in Delaware county should be more than enough to generate ridership, so neglecting the money-loss factor, they would be running trains that would probably be fairly packed. I'm not saying that the West Chester line would compare to Paoli in numbers, but it would bump it up.
 #802488  by Patrick Boylan
 
limejuice wrote: They do, however, compete with an entirely different transportation system, also government operated and much more heavily subsidized - the interstate highway system. Since everyone pays for the system through their taxes, and its costs aren't paid for by users directly, an artificial demand is created - which is what effectively put privately operated passenger rail out of business.
Please define artificial. Do you mean deliberate, that is somebody wanted to create the demand?
 #802523  by limejuice
 
gardendance wrote:Please define artificial. Do you mean deliberate, that is somebody wanted to create the demand?
Since users aren't paying the cost of the highway directly, more people use it than would if they had to had to pay for its cost directly via tolls. That is artificial demand. Whether it's deliberate or not, I don't know.
 #803108  by Tritransit Area
 
Matthew Mitchell wrote:
CSXT 4617 wrote:I hope someone, someday convinces SEPTA to resume service to West Chester.
That someone is gonna have to be the Chester County commissioners, who presently are putting restoration of service to Parkesburg (see DVRPC study) ahead of restoration to West Chester.
Interesting...why is that? Is it because it would be "cheaper" to restore and they would get the most bang for the buck? Does Amtrak have multi-ride tickets? I'd imagine that more service via Amtrak to these stations would be more desirable. A local ride on the R5 Thorndale (Parkesburg!) line would be incredibly tedious.
 #803134  by Patrick Boylan
 
There once was SEPTA service to Parkesburg. Others with more knowledge may want to chime in, but my understanding, from posts I saw somewhere, maybe even railroad.net, is that they cut back to Thorndale because that was just a more convenient spot, probably for signal, crossover and layover facilites, not necessarily because anybody thought the ride was too tedious.
Also why do any putative Parkesburg trips have to be local? I assume they can skip whatever stops the traffic demands, although I haven't noticed SEPTA consistently providing express railroad rides except at rush hours.
 #803141  by Matthew Mitchell
 
gardendance wrote:There once was SEPTA service to Parkesburg. Others with more knowledge may want to chime in, but my understanding, from posts I saw somewhere, maybe even railroad.net, is that they cut back to Thorndale because that was just a more convenient spot, probably for signal, crossover and layover facilites, not necessarily because anybody thought the ride was too tedious.
Correct. It was the crossover issue (which in turn necessitated the mid-day deadheads to Leaman Place and/or Lancaster to keep crews qualified. I think the details are in the study.
Also why do any putative Parkesburg trips have to be local? I assume they can skip whatever stops the traffic demands, although I haven't noticed SEPTA consistently providing express railroad rides except at rush hours.
The usual trade-off between speed and frequency. (I'm not taking a position one way or another here) The thought is that off-peak and reverse-peak riders value frequency more than speed.
 #803150  by skm
 
On several occasions I've had to take the Dart and Septa bus from Wilmington to North of US 1-202 (Chadds Ford/Concordville). There is bus service serving the local businesses (State Farm, Concordville Town Center). If you don't mind a two-hour journey, you could even take multiple buses (4 total) to PHL.

At one time Septa had or subcontracted bus service to Wilmington-West Chester that was eventually dropped due to lack of interest, now it's a two bus ride. The area (1-202) isn't pedestrian friendly so you must the cross 202 with care.

I haven't thought about rail/light rail between Wilmington-West Chester. I guess if you could reduce the travel time with limited stops perhaps it could be viable. (Of course money and a row would be huge issues.)

Regarding US 1, I think some type of express bus service from Oxford, Kennett Square to Wawa (R3) may be a viable option as oppose to restoring rail service.
 #803208  by Trails to Rails
 
limejuice wrote:
CSXT 4617 wrote:Back then, these services were privately operated, because transporting people was a profitable enterprise.
Well, not quite. Aside from a period of ZERO competition and two World Wars, the railroad's bottom line profits were buoyed by freight hauling, not people hauling. Without those situations and government rules FORCING them to provide it, they too would have dropped routes and cutback passenger service massively; way before bankruptcy, consolidation and SEPTA. The loss of the RPO cash cow was another nail in the passenger service coffin because of a lack of need of more frequent trains.

Maybe the answer is to allow and/or encourage SEPTA to haul short distance freight and run mail to 30th Street, a scenario as likely as service to West Chester I'm afraid.