Buffalo Creek 43 moved to Hamburg, NY

SimTrains wrote:Does the WNYRHS have a plan for this unit? Or should I say a purpose? It will be fantastic to see this beast up and running, but what exactly will it be running for?

This is a museum restoration in progress. Even if it won't be kicking cars in the Buffalo area, museums do things that railroads would never do because it does not make business sense for the railroad to activate a locomotive that does not need to be running, a museum does it in attempt to preserve the "historical fabric" that museums are supposed to protect and preserve for future generations. Even if they had this locomotive running tomorrow, it would not be going anywhere off the BSOR on those wheels (plain bearings). And while waivers can be had for one time moves (lots of leg work and hoop jumping), etc. Good luck with that.

Luther Brefo wrote:

Nova55 wrote:14 batterys? Ever loco I have seen has 8 from what I recall.

112 Volt System. This is ancient technology.

Most locos have a 64 or 72 volt system. Though there are those with 32 volt electrical systems. The HHs are odd in their 112 volt spec but they are also some of the oldest diesels around.

Yes. Precisely.

pablo wrote:My concerns with this locomotive are many, in fact. Simple searches around and about can verify my previous and current thoughts.

I have personally seen the locomotive up close and seen the damage that has been done to it. The locomotive was in good condition at the start of its WNYRHS tenure. It is certainly not now. Has it actually been turned over with a bar? With the stack uncapped for so long, I doubt it.

This is not a spot of rust. This is an historically significant locomotive gotten cheaply that has largely been wasted. I hope it will start. I hope it will run...even in revenue service. After seeing the interior door open for months with evidence of vandalism around and about, I'll believe it when I see it.

Dave Becker

Read what Scott wrote up above. Better yet let me quote him for you. I don't understand why you are being so dense. Give the guy the benefit of the doubt. If you think you can help them do a better job, get out there and help them. While it is fair to be critical of the WNYRHS or any other restoration groups and their efforts, the detractors such as yourself are not really helping. I have no problem with criticism but I dislike criticism in poor taste. You criticize and criticize but never offer to assist either in volunteer hours or in funding. Yet you're entitled to everything including an opinion on something you may not understand. And yes I know you worked for the WNYP and maybe you live too far away from Hamburg to assist with this restoration effort but offering opinion without knowledge of the facts is very annoying. In other words, put up or shut up.

Present your information if they are based on fact otherwise just quit it. You mention that the locomotive has been vandalized. Aside from broken glass, I don't see much of any vandalism to this locomotive. Scott has already asserted that the traction motor leads were NOT cut. I don't see why he would lie about such a thing.

I didn't take it all apart to ship it here but I did get all the pieces and parts of the trucks put back together and they work. If you have 14 - 8volt batteries, I'll get the prime mover up and running a lot sooner. NOTHING was ever cut off or stolen from the locomotive. I'll have all the windows replaced soon and then paint as weather allows. The MacIntosh & Seymore turns over with a bar so I'm sure it will fire up when I get some juice.

Does that satisfy your inquiries as to how the motor is doing?

Thanks for that note Luther..Never would have thought about 112V. Ill stick to Air Starts..

I think the only thing that would be scary is if indeed the stack was not capped. Then you could have some serious issues. Pre-lubing is your friend.

My father worked on the Buffalo Creek Railroad from 1955 to 1979 (Conrail). He operated the 43 numerous times until they sold it in 1966. He said that he took my sister and I for a ride on the 43 when we were very young. He still remembers and tells stories about it and he sure would like to see it running again.

I hate to flame on a subject, but Dave, your comments about the stack uncapped is not completely true. One, you could not have inspected the engine block completely unless you were trespassing. That engine is naturally aspirated, hence no turbo. The stack cover off can be a serious problem if left unchecked. As you know, the water can get in the exhaust system and down into the turbo and heads. This can cause rust and siezing as you mentioned. However, do you think the society would just leave it sit like that? The exhaust "muffler" for lack of a better word has drains in the bottom that are opened. With the wind and kids around, keeping the stack cover on has been a problem, but that doesn't mean it was forgotten about. I've seen worse engine blocks start up even after having water sit in a turbo! As for the "running" condition from Relco, I'd say BS to that. If it came out of service, then they were seriously neglecting the old girl. The general condition of the engine is really no worse that when it arrived (other than the mentioned vandalism). As far as making it run again....sure it is a dream. It is more than possible if the society wants to spend the time and money on it. Putting it back in service? Well...lets just take baby steps for now! As Scott said, just having it in Hamburg will allow more work to get done to it I hope.

Pat Connors
BSOR

First, it's nice to have an anonymous person claim that I'm dense, and second, it is nice for Pat to chime in.

I can tell you that I've seen the unit up close, although I wouldn't call it an inspection. I also did not trespass. I can tell you when I saw the unit, before the time I worked for the WNYP, the unit already had graffiti on it, and multiple doors open including hood and nose...and either people or animals had obviously been in there; a beer can sat by the front door. This unit sat exposed for years with no plan in place, and it's just sat there. It's nice that we've moved it a bit recently, but what is the plan? Remember, I'm not the first person to ask the question, and it's worth noting that no one from the WNYRHS has said anything. Here's a unit that was received for free and unless it's simply been added to Western New York's largest 1:1 scale collection, I'd be interested to know what's the plan.

That leads me to my second point. I think that this group might be the biggest frauds out there, at least regarding railroads and this end of the state. Everything I think and say comes from my own experience. An example would be the time when the group came to Jamestown, NY and offered the 4483 as an "exhibit" or something outside of the Jamestown Erie station. Someone actually got in contact with someone else, regardless of who initiated, and a member of the group acting as an officer suggested the unit come to Jamestown. Now, there are about a hundred reasons that this would be blindingly stupid, but for that one split second, the powers that be in Jamestown were pretty excited about it. Obviously, that hasn't happened.

That leads me to my final point. This is a group claiming to be the WESTERN NEW YORK RHS, and yet, when have they ventured south of Erie County? Aside from a clumsy attempt mentioned above regarding the Jamestown Erie station, they simply don't exist down yonder. And so, even though Eden, North Collins, or Williamsville aren't really a hop, skip or a jump away, it's not too far. But what's being done around here? I should donate my money to the #43, where no actual plan has ever been publicly stated? No work has taken place to date on the unit...so where did any donated money go? Or, should I come up to North Collins and help sand it, or paint it...so it can be vandalized again? None of that makes any sense.

I'm very happy Pat's involved. There's no one else close that could do any more, so who knows. Regarding the stacks being uncapped, that was posted here, and even Pat's post suggests that it's happened, briefly or no. But also in line with what I said, and with what the WNYRHS' own website says, the unit was stored serviceable. How serviceable is it? And again...what's the plan?

Dave Becker

Dave,

I choose to not reveal my identity here for personal reasons. I'm sorry if you have a problem with that.

In the time I knew you, you were a lot more level-headed than this. Claiming the WNYRHS is the biggest fraud is a bit over the top. It still sounds to me like there are some unnecessarily bad feelings. As far as I understand the WNYRHS is a group that like other railroad historical society suffers from lack of dedicated volunteers, abundant funds, and in this case a permanent home with enclosed shop and display space. You cannot take away from what the organization has accomplished over the years (like the passenger cars running on the Falls Road under the Medina Museum's lease.) As I understand it they do regular maintenance on this equipment and are doing their best to better the cars.

And if you feel that this group should cover more of Western New York, I'd say get involved and make it happen. Football fans calling plays on the sidelines don't add anything to the game. The players and coaching staff make it happen.

I'm sure if the WNYRHS had a permanent home and indoor work space and display space and money they'd be able to turn out nicely restored pieces more regularly.

Well I should get back to work.

Choose to reveal yourself or not. The simple fact of the matter is, especially for people who really do know me, when I actually lived in Western New York, I was not only involved with preservation and documentation, I actively sought out contact from the WNYRHS. There were different reasons at the different times for contact, whether an interest in simple membership, or to inquire at length about the proposal placed before the city of Jamestown that makes as much sense today as it did then. By phone or e-mail, I didn't get a return call. Do you know that the same member that "offered" the #4483 to the city of Jamestown was claiming that they could run an excursion from near the area of Hamburg to Jamestown in former B&SW trackage to Jamestown for Bills games and the like? Does anyone that actually knows about the line in questions realize how stupid that idea sounds? And yet, this is what the committee was told. I was on that committee, before I worked for the WNYP.

When coupled with the way that this locomotive has been handled, well, you tell me. On one end of the spectrum, you have groups like those restoring the Central Terminal, or the Rochester Chapter, who do a lot with the same "little" that everyone else has. On the opposite end would be what's left of the Mohawk Chapter, where things have simply been stolen by officers and sold elsewhere, and equipment left to rot. I don't think the WNYRHS is at that level (note I said in Western New York), but Mohawk got a bunch of historically significant equipment and it's sat on a track in the middle of nowhere rotting away to nothing, too.

Dave Becker

There were some interesting comments about the #43 in the BCK article recently published in the ELHS magazine "The Diamond". Apparently, BCK crews did not like the #43. They felt that the small doorway into the cab, the cramped cab area, the steep steps, and the loco's tendency to overheat in the summertime were major drawbacks. They prefered the early EMD SW series at first, before the line went all Alco with the S series later down the road.

-B in B

I seem to recall that the acquisition and arrival of 43 came with much fan fare nearly 9 years ago. #43 arrived and was parked on the siding in N. Collins. Then for 9 years, nothing until now.

I understand these efforts take time and money - both of which are always in short supply in preservation/museum circles. But, 9 years is quite a long time and during that time - little had been done and it takes even more time and money to reverse the effects of exposure to the elements (including animals, vandalism, etc...).

Can't just acquire equipment without a plan - otherwise you'll see restoration costs skyrocket.

Food for thought.

pablo wrote:Choose to reveal yourself or not. The simple fact of the matter is, especially for people who really do know me, when I actually lived in Western New York, I was not only involved with preservation and documentation, I actively sought out contact from the WNYRHS. There were different reasons at the different times for contact, whether an interest in simple membership, or to inquire at length about the proposal placed before the city of Jamestown that makes as much sense today as it did then. By phone or e-mail, I didn't get a return call. Do you know that the same member that "offered" the #4483 to the city of Jamestown was claiming that they could run an excursion from near the area of Hamburg to Jamestown in former B&SW trackage to Jamestown for Bills games and the like? Does anyone that actually knows about the line in questions realize how stupid that idea sounds? And yet, this is what the committee was told. I was on that committee, before I worked for the WNYP.

When coupled with the way that this locomotive has been handled, well, you tell me. On one end of the spectrum, you have groups like those restoring the Central Terminal, or the Rochester Chapter, who do a lot with the same "little" that everyone else has. On the opposite end would be what's left of the Mohawk Chapter, where things have simply been stolen by officers and sold elsewhere, and equipment left to rot. I don't think the WNYRHS is at that level (note I said in Western New York), but Mohawk got a bunch of historically significant equipment and it's sat on a track in the middle of nowhere rotting away to nothing, too.

Dave Becker

Dave,

Is it possible this individual you speak of was not authorized to come up with such far-fetched ideas, speak on behalf of the Society, and present his thoughts on behalf of the group?

As for the locomotive being handle, what exactly went wrong? As I understand it, RELCO donated the locomotive, and moved it on loaner roller bearing trucks and then disassembled the original trucks. I can see how this would slow down progress. It also appears the paint has faded and glass has been broken. I think Pat touched upon the capped stack issue but is there something else? It's been refuted several times that the traction motor leads have not been stolen so this is a good thing. Obviously the locomotive is not exactly in the condition it arrived in mechanically and cosmetically. What am I missing? Thanks.

Luther, I don't know who called whom, as if the city if Jamestown reached out first, or the WNYRHS did. I can say that the people responsible in Jamestown were in conversations with what they thought was someone from the WNYRHS, who offered:

1. #4483 outside the station at track level
2. the use of passenger cars for excursions
3. Helping to organize excursions to Cleveland, Buffalo, and points East
4. Specifically, excursions to Buffalo Bills games since "our track runs right to the stadium"

I also can't say if the public helped the city think this could be done, or if the WNYRHS helped lead the bull by the nose, but I can safely say that the city was looking at attracted a set number of people to the city each year. Let's say that number is 50,000. The various things either already built or in progress would have added up to, let's say, 40,000, and the city needed another attraction to get to the magic number for things like grants and what not. Whomever the city spoke to eagerly offered that the #4483 would help meet this total, bringing 10,000 people a year to the city on its own.

As a member of the committee that met immediately after this idea was floated, I vehemently opposed it, and there is a member of the City Council (I think that's what it is) that knows a bit about trains that also called BS on the idea, and his input surely had more value there than mine did, and the fact that this was a lie was a downer to the group.

Was this individual authorized by the group to speak on their behalf? I couldn't tell you. I can tell you that I separately attempted to speak with the individual and never heard a reply, and that goes for the group too, and no one ever replied to me. I can also tell you that this individual's name could be found in several places on the WNYRHS web site.

For whatever it's worth, I've been saying these things, here and elsewhere for years. Here's a thread from 2005 about the station:
http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... &sk=t&sd=a

Dave Becker

Isn't this the same group that has a former LV Alco S-type (from South Buffalo) that they got as a runner which has since been vandalized beyond all hope? Or am I thinking of another Buffalo-area RRHS group?

You get a unit you have no funds to work on and have to store in a vulnerable spot, it's not that expensive to have some pieces welded right on to seal the doors, or weld the doors themselves. Most vandals don't come with a generator and a grinder with cutoff wheel installed. Scare up some scrap steel you can plate the windows over too. Oil up the cylinders, remove the traction motor cables entirely, and it should be relatively secure for a long time.