Limited security on Amtrak trains; lawmakers want more

RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:59 am I didn't try to equate the two--I'm just pointing out that its much easier and more common to attack trains by attacking the ROW instead of attacking the train as a passenger and if someone was seriously concerned about those attacks, they'd be working to prevent the known attack patterns.

Also a good point was made on the many unmanned station stops AMTRAK makes. Are you going to set up airline type security at every stop? If not then why shouldn't a terrorist just get on at Thurmond or Montgomery or Prince, WV or any of the other hundreds of stops and skip the passenger screening? How many unmanned stops do airlines make to pick up passengers? Are you going to screen every commuter that gets on a Septa train? They traverse the NE corridor. How about busses? Where does it stop?

There's a logistically easy solution to the small unmanned stations... bring the magnetometer and 2 plane scanner with the train.

There are already companies making backpack size and even handheld machines that accomplished the same thing the conveyor belt machines at the airports do. There's a refrigerator size unit that can scan a rollerboard bag. So the technology is definitely available.

Can't be hard to convert part of a baggage car into a screening location. Cruise lines already do this with screening stations build into their 'deck 2' access points. They use it at a tie-up dock and it seems to handle the volume just fine.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 6:56 am A bit off-topic, but if anyone would like a pre-TSA trip "down memory lane" (well, for me) check out this 1970 flick, Airport. There were some four sequels - each getting more absurd than the preceding one.

But "it's a trip" to watch people coming and going anywhere in the "real life" MSP (fictional: Chicago Lincoln International) - and the best: people "dressing up" - suit and tie or dresses - to go on an airplane flight. Even the "bad guy" was wearing a suit.

Mr. Norman I do remember being on the tarmac and properly dressed at least as properly dressed as a five year old could be with my family when my uncle came home from his tour in Nam. As for the Airport movies I have seen the first two with the second being my favorite for its outright cheesiness. Some good actors in both.

WashingtonPark wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 7:41 am

RandallW wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:59 am I didn't try to equate the two--I'm just pointing out that its much easier and more common to attack trains by attacking the ROW instead of attacking the train as a passenger and if someone was seriously concerned about those attacks, they'd be working to prevent the known attack patterns.

Also a good point was made on the many unmanned station stops AMTRAK makes. Are you going to set up airline type security at every stop? If not then why shouldn't a terrorist just get on at Thurmond or Montgomery or Prince, WV or any of the other hundreds of stops and skip the passenger screening? How many unmanned stops do airlines make to pick up passengers? Are you going to screen every commuter that gets on a Septa train? They traverse the NE corridor. How about busses? Where does it stop?

Exactly, and then you'll have long waits for any intercity transportation, except personal cars. But wait, those could be used for smuggling too.

But it's not about the smuggling. It's about weapons getting on board.

If I can't go to a football game without walking through a metal detector, why can I get on a train?

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At sports venues, on Capitol Hill, and in Amtrak Dining Cars, they are also concerned with visitors who bring stuff that competes with the high priced menu.

JimBoylan wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 1:07 pm At sports venues, on Capitol Hill, and in Amtrak Dining Cars, they are also concerned with visitors who bring stuff that competes with the high priced menu.

No outside food or beverage policy, as dictated by most sports teams and venues However Amtrak allow personal food on board (no heating of such food on board in microwaves or ovens), but personal liquor and wine is only
permitted in private sleepers.

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:37 am As for the Airport movies I have seen the first two with the second being my favorite for its outright cheesiness. Some good actors in both.

Mr. Junkie, this one, Airport 75, where an Attendant is flying a 747 (with her boyfriend on the ground "talking her down")?

Passenger trains by their very nature are very different from airplanes, and are closer to other types of public environments like supermarkets. Trains are much less vulnerable to terrorist attacks from passengers onboard than airplanes are, so I'm not sure how much benefit there is from adding airport-type security for train passengers.

Airplanes are pressurized, have extremely lightweight structures, take a long time to descend, land, and evacuate from cruising altitude, and don't have cabin separation (except for the cockpit). They can only be landed by highly-trained pilots. Terrorist attempts to blow up airplanes have involved fairly small amounts of explosives (as shown by the thankfully unsuccessful shoe and underwear bombers). As unfortunately illustrated by 9/11, airplanes can also be weaponized as missiles and used to destroy skyscrapers and other large buildings and cause thousands of casualties. You therefore need fairly high levels of security for air travel.

Trains by comparison are heavy and overbuilt, sit on the ground, have doors between cars that allow on-board attackers to be compartmentalized, and can be brought to a stop in less than a minute and quickly evacuated. A shoe or underwear bomb will do little damage to a train. Emergency brake handles are located throughout the train and anyone can bring one to a stop, and they're difficult to weaponize as they only go where the track goes. A mass shooter can still do a lot of damage as passengers in the same car would have to escape and evacuate along a single aisle, but passengers are not that much more vulnerable than people at other public locations like supermarkets, shopping malls, transit buses, or say, train stations themselves.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:42 pm

Railjunkie wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 9:37 am As for the Airport movies I have seen the first two with the second being my favorite for its outright cheesiness. Some good actors in both.

Mr. Junkie, this one, Airport 75, where an Attendant is flying a 747 (with her boyfriend on the ground "talking her down")?

Yes, that is the one. The attempt to "drop" a pilot through the gash on the side of the plane ends terribly. So its up to the flight attendant to land a 747.

type 7 3704 wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 4:52 pm A mass shooter can still do a lot of damage as passengers in the same car would have to escape and evacuate along a single aisle, but passengers are not that much more vulnerable than people at other public locations like supermarkets, shopping malls...

The Merillon Avenue shooting had a rather low fatality count in part to the actions of three commuters who
grabbed the gunman and held him down until police arrived. All the casualties occurred in one car. Strength in
numbers worked here and had it not not been for him being held down or required to reload, the casualties would probably been higher.

eolesen wrote: ↑Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:17 am There's a logistically easy solution to the small unmanned stations... bring the magnetometer and 2 plane scanner with the train.

There are already companies making backpack size and even handheld machines that accomplished the same thing the conveyor belt machines at the airports do. There's a refrigerator size unit that can scan a rollerboard bag. So the technology is definitely available.

Can't be hard to convert part of a baggage car into a screening location. Cruise lines already do this with screening stations build into their 'deck 2' access points. They use it at a tie-up dock and it seems to handle the volume just fine.

Are you going to have the train hold at Podunk, MO. for 20 minutes while the FRA (you know the current unions aren't going to do this) take a person into the baggage car and do a full body check because they saw something they didn't like? Are you going to add 5 minutes to every station stop to have people empty their pockets so nothing will set off the detector? Please tell me you were just kidding. I'm sure you realize that all the stuff being done at minor league ballparks is strictly to keep you from bringing your own food and drink so you're not paying 15 dollars for a beer and 8 dollars for a pretzel. A football stadium with 60,000 people is a little different than a traveling passenger train or bus, and even there the primary worry is people bringing their own food in with them.

Hey, it's not my idea to impose this. Ask Congress why this is being discussed -- I do know it's not about the food, since nothing stops you from bringing food on Amtrak.

Amusement parks have had metal detectors for over a decade because gang violence was showing up inside their gates.

Chicago added metal detectors to visit a park in the Loop, again because of gang violence.

Union Station in DC was on partial lockdown today because of someone seen carrying a rifle across the street.

Someone attacked someone with a freakin' machete on Amtrak.

DEA got into a shootout with another person.

It's not about the food.

It's about the 302 assaults and 370 drug offenses on Amtrak trains in 2021.

Keep coming up with reasons why it's not necessary, but it won't change the fact that, as I've said in other threads, we're just another serious incident or two away from security theater coming to Amtrak.

eolesen wrote: ↑Tue Nov 07, 2023 6:28 pm Amusement parks have had metal detectors for over a decade because gang violence was showing up inside their gates.

Chicago added metal detectors to visit a park in the Loop, again because of gang violence.

Mr. Olesen, likely you were not, but I was around to remember Riverview.

With or without it being a magnet for violence, in all likelihood, it would have been closed today (it was hardly a "theme park"). The real estate is now home to two "elite" secondary schools (one Lane Tech; Chicago Public Schools; other De Paul University) and several retail outlets.

The talk of amusement parks reminds me: in Virginia, it is legal to carry a firearm into festivals, but not alcohol, any drinks in glass, or knives, so when I've worked at the gates of town fairs recently, it's been strange telling people they can't carry the knife, but can carry the gun.