Fredrick Douglass Tunnel (Replacement of the Baltimore and Potomac B&P Tunnel)

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 4:11 pm

gprimr1 wrote: ↑Fri Aug 11, 2023 2:05 pm I thought the B&P Tunnels were falling apart, that's why they are being replaced, not just due to the bottleneck they cause.

I have to agree, why not future-proof them and add freight clearance?

How? They leak ground water and the occasional brick and constantly need repair work. Two sections already collapsed well before I was riding MARC regularly through the B&P. It's 30 MPH for a reason. They already studied that solution to death -- look at the FEIS! Look at the older studies!

It's only a matter of time before there's another collapse that has to be cleared.

Why not put the Camden connector in, and have Csx serve the limited customers from South of the tunnels from riverside, instead of from Bayview.
Iirc, NS isn't running any through freight trains WAS to BAL, it's all local.

So this popped up in a Facebook group.

Click to read: Amtrak files eminent domain lawsuit against West Baltimore property owners

Brief, fair use quote:

Amtrak filed a complaint Thursday in the U.S. District Court of Maryland against four West Baltimore property owners the rail provider claims stand in the way of replacing the aging Baltimore and Potomac Tunnel.

In filing the lawsuit, Amtrak cites eminent domain statutes as giving it the authority to acquire the properties essentially by force for the public good — in this case public transportation.

I wonder how little Amtrak wants to pay?

A. question about the procedure for exercising eminent domain: Does a court appoint a qualified neutral third party to establish a price which is then binding on both parties, and is there an avenue of appeal? If there is an appeal, can the work go forward anyway, since the transfer of property has been approved and the only remaining element is the price?

That varies by state. In NC, where one year I sat on a jury determining the value of the eminent domain seizure, if negotiations fail, the seizing party must sue the other party to allow a jury to determine the just value of the land. In the case I sat on, considering the seizing of a corner of a property for a road widening, this meant that additional appraisals were performed, the jury heard evidence of the value of the property from 4 appraisers (two representing the state, and 2 representing the interests of the original owner; of these 1 appraiser for each party was from the failed negotiations and the 2nd for each party was hired after the seizure went to court). We also heard from the state describing in technical terms the property from which the seizure occurred and the expected impacts of the widened road on the property, and from the owner about what they had wished to do with the property but could no longer do as they planned. Our job was solely to determine the value of the seizure. I understand the state paid all court costs, and the owner paid for their own lawyers and assessors.

John_Perkowski wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 7:55 pm So this popped up in a Facebook group.

Click to read: Amtrak files eminent domain lawsuit against West Baltimore property owners

Brief, fair use quote:

Amtrak filed a complaint Thursday in the U.S. District Court of Maryland against four West Baltimore property owners the rail provider claims stand in the way of replacing the aging Baltimore and Potomac Tunnel.

In filing the lawsuit, Amtrak cites eminent domain statutes as giving it the authority to acquire the properties essentially by force for the public good — in this case public transportation.

I wonder how little Amtrak wants to pay?

I linked to this down in the Fredrick Douglas tunnel thread.

Okay, a day and less stress later...

Yes, it would be good to have freight run through the B&P. I think that the B&P would need extensive reconstruction, though, to make it last the next 150 years.

But, if you're going to hand off to CSX, you might as well hand it off in Bayview and run the freight through the Howard Street Tunnel. The other rub is that there's CSX track south of Bowie that connects to the NEC, so you're handing it off anyway. So CSX (if I remember correctly) is just evoking track rights to the NEC.

One of the tunnel ores is going to be freight capable. Enough said

STrRedWolf, I know, but I thought someone said they would use the old tunnels for freight, that's why I said I thought they were falling apart.

I remember there was talk at one point about restoring the Camden connector to increase flexibility with MARC service.

gprimr1 wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 11:52 am STrRedWolf, I know, but I thought someone said they would use the old tunnels for freight, that's why I said I thought they were falling apart.

I remember there was talk at one point about restoring the Camden connector to increase flexibility with MARC service.

I think there was some talk in the prelim documents about turning the B&P into freight only, which will make sense given how slow it is.

That said, the Camden/Penn connector makes sense because the Riverside repair yard is accessible only by the Camden Line. To get equipment to that yard, you ether go through Bayview on two tracks and go through three sets of tunnels, or you send it down to DC and then back up on CSX territory... which was standard MO for MARC.

$52K to $85K seems to be pretty low for two story row houses, even if they are dilapidated. Well below replacement cost. 1002 isn't even boarded up!!!

As understood. These properties have several clearance issues.
1. These will allow for the West Balitmore MARC station to be built .
2. The Amtrak trains will exit tunnel bore at speed of 100+.
3. Allows for construction spur for spoil removal and building materials.
4. straighten tracks to allow for #s 1 - 3

Checkout open railway map. going down to details you will see how line i will be straighter.

https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

west point wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 9:20 pm As understood. These properties have several clearance issues.
1. These will allow for the West Balitmore MARC station to be built .
2. The Amtrak trains will exit tunnel bore at sprod of 100+.
3. Allows for construction spur for spoil removal and building materials.
4. straighten tracks to allow for #s 1 - 3

Checkout open railway map. going down to details you will see how line i will be straighter.

https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

Let me clear that up a bit:

The track curve needed to let the trains exit at 100 MPH needed to be smoothed out from what we have now, which is much sharper. This requires rebuilding West Baltimore MARC (which will be west of the existing station, and the existing station will need some temporary stairways to stay operational on that side during rebuilding). It does give Amtrak the ability to ship dug out material (spoil) out by train.

That said, Open Railway Map does have the proposed 4-track layout shown, which actually helps in visualizing why the properties have to be taken.

The Baltimore Banner has published a new article which describes a perceived lack of true, meaningful community engagement on Amtrak’s property acquisitions in Baltimore to support the construction of the Douglass Tunnel. Several people on Reddit have dismissed the concerns cited in the article as NIMBYism, but I am curious about this forum’s opinion on the concerns cited by the Banner and the manner in which they have been cited.

For example:

Some residents of the 900 block of North Payson Street mentioned a community meeting that Amtrak hosted this year at which they could ask questions about noise, pollution, property values and more. But that meeting, six years after the Record of Decision, happened only after community leaders repeatedly asked the passenger rail company to come talk to the community, they said.

Other West Baltimore residents, including Carson Ward of Reservoir Hill, said community meetings were few and far between, often at inconvenient locations or during the day while most people were working.

Is this backed up by anyone’s own experiences with their attendance and/or participation in Amtrak’s community meetings?

Additionally:

Ward has the same question, adding that Amtrak hasn’t been clear regarding the potential frequency of diesel-powered trains running through the tunnel.

And what if there’s an electrical fire? The smoke would vent into the air, right across the street from an elementary school.

I was under the impression that modern railway tunnel ventilation, even for tunnels with majority-electrified traffic, incorporated exhaust filtration and scrubbing systems designed specifically to mitigate the pollution caused by tunnel fires and/or concentrated diesel exhaust. Which EPA Tier standard do Amtrak’s work train diesels currently meet or exceed?

Let me add more perspective here.

A lot of the property being bought up by Amtrak is in a blighted area, bringing property values down. A lot of the landlords are not "nearby" or even in state -- take for example the Kushner Companies who used to own a lot of apartment buildings in Baltimore but is based in New York City (they no longer do have property in Baltimore as far as I can tell, but when they did, there were major issues). Some property is city held and was probably "sold" for $1.

That said, Amtrak can do more community outreach by repeated surveying the communities and noting which ones are willing to talk, wiling to attend a meeting convenient to them (and gathering times), refuse to talk at all, or just aren't there. With that data, you can schedule meetings for those willing to talk, shame those not willing to talk, and filter out the "nothings".

There's a difference between "Amtrak isn't listening to me" and "I don't want to even talk to those goons, whoever they are, leave me alone." If Amtrak made every reasonable effort to engage, it leans more the latter than the former, and it sound more like they haven't.

They got a little bit of time as the eniment domain proceedings run through the courts. They should use it for the above.

Decent report, but you really gotta dig into it.

Thanks for your perspective. My perception of the reporting in the Banner about Amtrak’s community outreach is very similar to yours. I suspect that there will always be property owners who are unwilling to participate, but that doesn’t excuse any poor or incomplete efforts by Amtrak.