CSX train derailment Hoffmans NY

StLouSteve wrote: ↑Sat Aug 12, 2023 5:28 am Just rode the LSL from Chicago to upstate NY. The NS section was horrible. Jolted awake many times and had to hope we stayed on the rails. In comparison, the CSX tracks are great. Wonderfully smooth and well-maintained. Therefore, if I was to speculate, I might think the cause of this derailment is more likely to be a car or train defect rather than something rail-related. Has anyone gotten more details on the cause?

I think we will see a broken rail somewhere in the report as the cause. CSX and NS are not known for track maintenance. If I was to rank them I would give CSX a very slight edge I do recall when CSX had the Hudson sub and it was like a dirt road you kissed the control stand when you made it to Poukeepsie.. Metro North at one time was the smoothest ride in NY until the storms and hurricanes of the past 5 or 6 years beat up the railroad.

Early reports said a trailing point switch was set the wrong way.

So the signal system and I-ETMS failed??? Doubtful. Have a co worker is very good friends with the engineer of the derailed train. He mentioned nothing of signal issues coming down the hill, seeing any misaligned switches, or any other issues to lead him to believe there was an issue until the loud bang and seeing his train piling up behind him. His next thoughts were bail off @#$% I don't want to end up in the river.

Who reported a trailing point switch misaligned??

"Early reports said a trailing point switch was set the wrong way."

In an interlocking ? And no signal indication showing a route was not properly lined ?

And the locos and many cars made it over the "wrong way switch" before things hit the ground ?

Early reports are often totally wrong....

Pure speculation: Could it be that the switch changed positions while a train was on it?

This is something I wish the NTSB was involved in.

Mr. Wolf, who says the NTSB will not investigate this incident?

From Wiki:

Jurisdiction over investigations

Surface Transportation
The NTSB has the authority to investigate all highway accidents and incidents, including incidents at railway grade crossings, "in cooperation with a State".[2] The NTSB has primary jurisdiction over railway accidents and incidents which result in death or significant property damage, or which involve a passenger train.[2]

There does not appear to be any delineated "hard and fast" criteria for an NTSB investigation, i.e. xx injuries, xx property damage. The Board can either be "invited" to investigate or can choose to "invite themselves to the scene".

With the potential for environmental damage to have developed from this incident, as well as the extensive property damage and delays to passenger trains, my bet is that "they will be there" if not already.

Again from what I was told and there is no reason to misspeak from either the engineer of the derailed train who was cleared of any wrong doing by CSX and FRA and I believe the NTSB. He is still in service and working. My co worker who worked with said engineer in his time at Conrail/CSX and has remained friends with him. Said co worker was one of the first people he called once he finished with his necessary duties with CSX. Hey you know CP 169 its gone, CSX was thinking about reconfiguring the interlocking I gave them a head start. Was how the conversation began. There was no mention of signal, I-ETMS, or switch issues. When the dispatcher lines up a cross over move within a interlocking its locked by the computer. Hence the term interlocking. Shit has to go really really sideways to have a proceed signal and a misaligned switch within your route

The misaligned switch report could have come from the fact that AMT 280 was lined up to go east through CP169 on the number 7 switch off track two to the Amtrak main.

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 6:25 am Mr. Wolf, who says the NTSB will not investigate this incident?

NTSB themselves. I looked up at their incident page and did not find the CSX derailment.

"Pure speculation: Could it be that the switch changed positions while a train was on it?"

The turnouts in an interlocking are mechanically locked by the switch machines. The turnout is not going to "change position" without a command from the computer controlling the interlocking. And that computer will not change anything in the interlocking when a train is approaching, in the interlocking, or leaving the interlocking.

The wheels / axles / trucks of a train car could fail and break the turnout parts and force them into the wrong position during the derailment. So a first look at a turnout after a derailment might look like it is in the wrong position, but it could be a result of the wreck and not the cause.

NYCRRson wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:33 pm "Pure speculation: Could it be that the switch changed positions while a train was on it?"

The turnouts in an interlocking are mechanically locked by the switch machines. The turnout is not going to "change position" without a command from the computer controlling the interlocking. And that computer will not change anything in the interlocking when a train is approaching, in the interlocking, or leaving the interlocking.

Assuming the computer is operating correctly, which I'll give that for a layman but being a computer programmer, I've seen computers do weird stuff. I've also seen power outages take out TVs and surges blow drives. So no, don't assume that.

The wheels / axles / trucks of a train car could fail and break the turnout parts and force them into the wrong position during the derailment. So a first look at a turnout after a derailment might look like it is in the wrong position, but it could be a result of the wreck and not the cause.

This is more likely, but all should be tested.

NYCRRson wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 3:33 pm "Pure speculation: Could it be that the switch changed positions while a train was on it?"

The turnouts in an interlocking are mechanically locked by the switch machines. The turnout is not going to "change position" without a command from the computer controlling the interlocking. And that computer will not change anything in the interlocking when a train is approaching, in the interlocking, or leaving the interlocking.

The wheels / axles / trucks of a train car could fail and break the turnout parts and force them into the wrong position during the derailment. So a first look at a turnout after a derailment might look like it is in the wrong position, but it could be a result of the wreck and not the cause.

The machines themselves are what hold the points against the rail. The computer is what tells the machines what to do after a few clicks of the mouse by the dispatcher, RTC, operator or what ever they wish to call themselves. Interlockings were once mechanical hence the name, where levers and rods interlocked to set a route. Same idea here just done by the computer in Jacksonville FLA..
They can not change switch position as a train approaches or goes through the interlocking. The route is set and locked. If something were to happen inside the interlocking before the train was to arrive at that location the signal system would default to stop as would the I-ETMS.
It would also show on the dispatchers screen that something was up inside the interlocking. Conversations would be had because he knows what he did and he wants to know what happened in the field. Everything we do be it T&E or dispatchers is on "tape".
As for the signal system, the dispatcher can not clear a route until the train shows clear on his board and it unlocks the interlocking. Or if he stops a train before it enters into a interlocking by A. asking if train XYZ can stop before entering and B. asking to take away the signal once train XYZ is stopped. You might hear I gotta run down the signal or time it out in the conversation. Because back in the days of mechanical interlockings there was a actual timer 5 minutes or so before you could change a route. A built in safety precaution.

There is a brief lesson in railroad interlockings and how they work. CSX calls them CPs or control points its all basically the same premise. Just have to know which railroad your on which rules to follow.