Grand Central Madison TIMETABLES AND RIDERSHIP THREAD

Everyone - One of the most interesting changes being implemented in the LIRR February 27, 2023 timetable
are the changes to Atlantic Terminal-Brooklyn train service - which will be primarily shuttles serving the new
Jamaica Platform F - Tracks 11 and 12 on the south end adjacent to the JFK Airtrain terminal.

There WILL be through train service to/from AT hourly daily (on average) from the West Hempstead Branch.
The revised route will be West Hempstead-Westwood and St. Albans to Jamaica. WH trains will no longer
serve Valley Stream eliminating the time-consuming crossover moves through Valley Interlocking.

Two AM Peak weekday westbound trains from Freeport run to Atlantic Terminal.
Three PM Peak weekday eastbound trains run from Atlantic Terminal to Freeport.

There will be one Hempstead Branch train in each direction: (intermediate stations not mentioned)
AM Peak westbound #721 - 7:05 AM Hempstead, 7:36 Jamaica, 7:55 Atlantic Terminal.
PM Peak eastbound #762 - 4:59 PM Atlantic Terminal, 5:20 Jamaica, 5:52 PM Hempstead.

All through trains to/from West Hempstead, Freeport and Hempstead to Atlantic Terminal will use
Tracks 1-8 at Jamaica. All trains to and from AT will stop at East New York and Nostrand Avenue.

A description of the Atlantic Terminal Service that can be included in LIRR Branch timetables
can be worded something like this: (except Port Washington Branch)

ATLANTIC TERMINAL SERVICE - Beginning February 27, 2023 most Atlantic Terminal trains will run
as a new shuttle service serving Platform F - Tracks 11 and 12 at Jamaica adjacent to the JFK Airtrain.
Running time is 20 minutes westbound and 21 minutes eastbound.
All trains stop at Nostrand Avenue and East New York.

During AM Peak hours 6 to 10 AM and PM Peak hours 4 to 8 PM trains will operate every 12 minutes
on weekdays. At all other times trains will operate every 20 minutes and will include an hourly through
train to and from West Hempstead which will serve Tracks 1 to 8. Off peak and weekend trains will run:

From Jamaica westbound - :01, :21 from Platform F - :41 through from WH.
From Atlantic Terminal eastbound - :04*, :24 (through to WH) and :44* (*to Jamaica Platform F)

There is no service between Jamaica and Atlantic Terminal overnight:
1:04 to 5:04 AM westbound from Jamaica; 1:44 to 5:01 AM eastbound from Atlantic Terminal.

MACTRAXX (editing reason: Adding Atlantic Terminal service details)

I’d add to this very thorough post that this introductory period may provide a snapshot of how the ridership splits will shake out. With through direct service starting, we’ll see the effect on Jamaica transfers as well.

I'm sure MACTRAXX is correct in his predictions about the schedule. I was a very young commuter when the electrification to Huntington went into effect with new schedules in the fall of 1970. And I remember there were snags in the new schedule and several revisions that tweaked the schedule were implemented in the year or two afterwards.

Something I did not see stated here is the fact that the metro north-ification of Jamaica will work in conjunction with the through schedules
Jamaica will become more like 125st Harlem. However it will still be a bit more complicated because of its sheer complexity and the fact that LIRR now has 4 western terminals.
The intention is that with ESA and NYP. the majority of LIRR commuters will uses these services reducing the need for Brooklyn and LIC through service.
Brooklyn services a sizable non manhattan in addition to the commuters going to lower manhattan on many of the same subways that get close to NYP/GCT. This leaves Brooklyn as an overflow option for those who prefer to use this instead of the other 2.

The reconfiguring will be geared to allow Trains to pass through Jamaica station potentially at speeds up to 30mph, possibly 40mph depending on the route. (I need more information)
This means all the slow speed switches outside the station in Jay and Hall need to be removed and it will reduce routing flexibility.
This routing flexibility reduction requires the elimination of connections at Jamaica.
Connections at Huntington, Mineola Hicksville Babylon , Babylon, FreePort Valley Stream and so on will not always be schedule. But will be faster overall because there involve less people than dumping an entire Brooklyn train onto a train from PENN/GCM.

Regardless, this will be a massive learning curve for the commuters, casual rider and the train crews alike.
I think we can work together and voice our concerns to the proper authorities.

Off the bat, there will be a 2 month major teething period.
During this time, the management and service planning will be fielding complaints and studying the pros and cons of this general order. No doubt but timetable no2 in may will present another challenge while addressing any concerns raised in GO-102. Taking effect on the 27th, 2, 2023.

no doubt a rough time ahead for the train crews and passengers alike!
Trust me, the crews don’t like Change, just as much as the commuters don’t. Everyone is in a routine, and in a few days that will be like throwing the defection at the rotary oscillator.

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Tue Feb 21, 2023 3:23 am In recent years the LIRR implemented what I will call "Psuedo-Express" service stopping at -
Babylon, Amityville, Massapequa, Bellmore, Freeport (sometimes Lynbrook) and Jamaica.
In the new schedule these trains run outside of the Peak AM and Peak PM time period.
A 2023 adjustment could be adding some of these trains during peak hours as connecting
services from Patchogue and Speonk trains terminating/originating at Babylon.

Under the proposed schedule, all of weekday Babylon - Patchogue/Speonk shuttles have either a connecting zone express (usually Jamaica-Wantagh, but I also see Jamaica-Massapequa, Merrick-Jamaica and Babylon - Wantagh on there) or semi-express (Babylon, Amityville, Massapequa, Bellmore, Freeport....Lynbrook has been removed from all of the semi-expresses).

For the weekends, only the first Speonk - Babylon shuttle connects to a local train, and the rest connect to a semi-express.

It would be nice if they actually denoted those Babylon Branch trains that stop at St. Albans, or the Main Line trains that stop at Hollis or Queens Village (you have to look at the West Hempstead Branch and Hempstead Branch timetables respectively, and if you see a train that seems to end at St. Albans or Elmont, that is the Babylon Branch/Main Line train). Personally, I think they should've standardized these stopping patterns...they definitely made a big step forward, but there is definitely much left to be desired).

I notice they took out some padding in some areas, which is good (for example, train 17...the current 2:48pm out of Montauk that will now leave at 2:50pm) has the padding taken out between Westhampton and Speonk. Same for the SFCC train, which is able to be extended to Speonk so it at least connects to a westbound 3 hours later...getting off at Hampton Bays and taking 2 buses is unfortunately still quicker to Mastic-Shirley and points west, but at least it's a step in the right direction). They also added a westbound out of Patchogue at 6:31pm.

Also, I wonder if the SFCC will run on Fridays. It looks like they'll try to have it meet the Cannonball at Hampton Bays.

Adding in my comment from the other thread regarding the Greenport Scoot:

checkmatechamp13 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 19, 2022 2:20 am

MACTRAXX wrote: ↑Sun Dec 18, 2022 9:43 am Agreed - The LIRR Ronkonkoma-Greenport "Scoot" is the LIRR's least-run service.
More For the Record: The LIRR line with the lowest ridership in the system is the West Hempstead Branch...
MACTRAXX

I would imagine the Greenport Scoot has lower total ridership than the West Hempstead Branch (It's just that it's likely lumped in with the Ronkonkoma Branch statistics)

They should really revamp the Greenport Scoot schedule so that alternating trains terminate at Riverhead and the span is longer. This will be easier once East Side Access opens since there will be more frequent electric service to connect it to. Using the proposed Ronkonkoma Branch schedule as a baseline, a good connecting service could be as follows:

Weekday

Leaves Ronkonkoma 3:41am, arrives Riverhead 4:25am, arrives Greenport 5:05am

Leaves Greenport 5:24am, arrives Riverhead 6:02am, arrives Ronkonkoma 6:48am

Leaves Ronkonkoma 7:25am, arrives Riverhead 8:09am, arrives Greenport 8:49am

Leaves Greenport 9:27am, arrives Riverhead 10:05am, arrives Ronkonkoma 10:51am

Leaves Ronkonkoma 11:28am, arrives Riverhead 12:12pm

Leaves Riverhead 12:34pm, arrives Ronkonkoma 1:20pm

Leaves Ronkonkoma 1:58pm, arrives Riverhead 2:42pm, arrives Greenport 3:22pm

Leaves Greenport 3:59pm, arrives Riverhead 4:37pm, arrives Ronkonkoma 5:23pm

Leaves Ronkonkoma 5:54pm, arrives Riverhead 6:38pm

Leaves Riverhead 7:05pm, arrives Ronkonkoma 7:51pm

Leaves Ronkonkoma 8:14pm, arrives Riverhead 8:58pm, arrives Greenport 9:38pm

Leaves Greenport 9:54pm, arrives Riverhead 10:32pm, arrives Ronkonkoma 11:18pm

Alternatively, the 11:28am out of Ronkonkoma can run to Greenport, arriving at 12:52pm, then turning for a 1:27pm to Ronkonkoma (arriving 2:51pm). Then turn for a 3:28pm to Riverhead (arriving 4:12pm) and then a 4:37pm to Ronkonkoma (arriving at 5:23pm and contining the rest of the PM rush schedule as above)

Weekends, the full summer schedule should be 4:58am, 8:58am, 3:28pm, and 7:28pm out of Ronkonkoma to Greenport (with a 12:58pm Ronkonkoma-Riverhead)

Going back should be 6:54am, 10:54am, 5:27pm, and 9:27pm out of Greenport to Ronkonkoma, with a 2:05pm out of Riverhead to Ronkonkoma.

Riders on the Riverhead short-turn have the option of using the S92 to connect to/from Greenport.

In addition, some train numbers have changed. Far Rockaway trains, which were 2800 weekday/8800 weekend,
are now 2700/8700 series. Weekend Montauk Branch diesels are now in the 6000s (former 8700s).

300/6300 (weekend) series now denotes Port Washington service operating out of Grand Central, whereas it had
previously been used for Great Neck locals and short turns.

The East Williston AM peak electric local has been eliminated.

Port Washington Branch trains no longer stop at Willets Point, except for game days and certain events such as concerts. There had been plans to have Willets Point as a full time 24/7 station in the near future.

There is one train that glides through Jamaica without a timetable stop, Train 14, the off-season Cannonball. It leaves Penn Station at 4:07 and reaches first stop Southampton 92 minutes later. I wonder how many miles that is. I also wonder it beats most Friday rush-hour trips of the rival bus.

I used Jamaica MP9 and Southampton MP89 for 80 miles. 52 mph

bellstbarn wrote: I also wonder it beats most Friday rush-hour trips of the rival bus.

Now - train blows away the bus. Once upon a time there was a chance it was close if the bus stop was near the Canal, but traffic on the LIE on a Friday afternoon nowadays? Not a chance. For those not familiar with trip in a vehicle, it's wide open on Sunrise up until a little after the Canal, then 2 lanes with lights into Southampton and it moved ok if there was no speed traps. But now, lots of cops and if something's going on (Golf Open, Art festival, Diddy's party, etc.) it's over. Only thing that could cause the bus to win is trouble like a circuit pinning the crossings in Patchogue, or a thunderstorm taking out a bunch of circuits east thereof.

There was a brief lapse in traffic when they bailed out of the City during the Pandemic and settled out east. But, it's now bad as ever and if you're going east of Southampton, train wins every time. I have seen some crazy epic jams on the portion east of the Hampton Rd. junction on Sunrise. Now that everyone has GPS, the roads will saturate all the way up to Sag Harbor as people seek to evade the jam and it's impossible to move anywhere during the big holiday weekends.

There's a good reason why the locals clamor for LIRR Scoot service on the South Fork, because you can't get a cardboard box to live in for under a million and the the regular folk who commute are often stuck in traffic.

https://www.cbsnews.com/newyork/news/fr ... onvenient/

"It lengthens the commute by over an hour, causes me to potentially have a two-hour-plus commute home," said Velentzas.

He's not alone.

John O'Hara, another commuter, said his options will be "ungodly early or unacceptably late." O'Hara was hoping to benefit from the long-promised East Side access.

MORE: Major schedule changes start Monday for Long Island Rail Road riders

"It's extremely frustrating to finally see it come to fruition and realizing that my commuting experience is going to be anything but improved," said O'Hara.

Riders on the Oyster Bay Branch launched a petition, claiming they've been neglected in the new schedules. They cited lengthened commutes, more time between trains and a schedule that doesn't sync up for changing at Jamaica

Everyone - First I am going to start off with a FRUSTRATING problem that I sometimes encounter with RR.Net -
On a post that has a lot of text and takes a long period of time to type out I *MUST* submit and pull back a
post - because if I go too long the site requires logging back in - and by doing so I LOSE my post text. I can
go backwards but it is a risk - sometimes it is there - sometimes not - in this case it was **GONE**.
I ended up logging back out and called it a night afterwards losing my "train of thought"...
I also think that the limitations of my device can confound this problem...

I was trying to answer multiple posts at the same time with one long reply - I CAN'T DO THAT...
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Back to the LIRR February 27, 2023 Timetable topic:
This is an important subject about the February 27 LIRR schedule changes - and I correctly thought
that there would be added Forum interest in this subject as the introductory date draws closer...

Steve and BSB: From a LIRR ETT it is 76.2 miles from Penn Station to Westhampton.
Mile posts on the LIRR are from end of track Long Island City - Westhampton is at 74.3
Good observation that the Friday "un-named Cannonball" continues its nonstop run
from Penn Station east to the Hamptons. I agree with Krispy that Hampton Jitney has
to deal with heavy traffic on a getaway Friday - as for the time factor the train wins...

R36: The observation about what was AM Peak Train #1501 west from East Williston or
a new equivalent not returning to the schedule is something we BOTH noticed...
#1501 ended with the 2020 schedule changes in response to "The Problem" and
was not restored to the timetable when increased LIRR service resumed...
The 1.5 miles of third rail on the OB Branch will continue to go unused...
(not counting 500 series DM30 locomotives in OB Branch service that normally are not in E mode there)

As for the OB Branch new schedule - if rider complaints are any indication LIRR planners are going to have
to further revise the new timetable - the problem some may not understand fully is placing these trains in
"slots" west of Mineola with all the added service on the Main Line westward is going to be a tough task.

Replies and observations TO BE CONTINUED...MACTRAXX

Everyone - The Ronkonkoma Branch getting half hour base service seven days a week is a culmination
of a goal that began in June 1985 with the start of the Hicksville-Ronkonkoma Elecrification project...

The addition of the full second track between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma and the recent completion
of the Main Line Third Track Project made this service increase feasible and will finally become reality...

Even with those improvements there are instances that the new schedule may be a detriment for some
riders - This is an example I am familiar with occasionally riding this one particular weekday train:

On the current schedule (and before "The Problem") Train #2005 - 4:06 AM westbound from Ronkonkoma
All stops to Hicksville (except Pinelawn) then Westbury, Mineola, Merillon Avenue, New Hyde Park -
Arrive/Leave Jamaica 5:10/5:11 AM; express to Penn Station arrive 5:29 AM.

I call Train #2005 the "Sleeper" or "Quiet" train because a substantial number of riders are sleeping and
those awake and conversing are talking low trying to be respectful to their fellow riders.

The ridership is primarily blue collar and shift workers that begin their work days at or around 6 AM.
Those seeking early-morning Amtrak or NJT connections at Penn Station use this train as I have...

The counterpart train on the new schedule runs 19 minutes later making it tougher for 6 AM workers
to arrive on time and may make connecting to other trains at Penn Station tighter...

New Train #1905 westbound: Leave Ronkonkoma 4:25 AM - All stops (except Pinelawn) to Hicksville.
Hicksville 5:01; Mineola 5:09; Jamaica 5:24; Woodside 5:32 and Penn Station 5:43 AM.

From cross-checking the new Port Jefferson Branch schedule there is not only no westbound trains
from Huntington that would offer connections for Westbury, Merillon Avenue and New Hyde Park at
Hicksville - there are no convenient trains stopping at those stations at all for the mentioned 6AM riders.

The next Hicksville-Westbury connection is 5:31 AM - a 30 minute wait in Hicksville.
The next Mineola-Merillon Avenue-New Hyde Park connection is 5:28 AM - a 19 minute wait in Mineola.
Westbury and New Hyde Park stops at minimum should be added to Train #1905.

Moving #1905 up by 15 minutes would be 4:10 AM from Ronkonkoma...An arrival at or around 5:30 AM
would be better for the 6AM workers to be on time which is the most important reason for the revision.

At this point I will rest...TO BE CONTINUED - MACTRAXX

Train 1905 has been revised

RON 4:16am
CI 4:23am
BWD 4:27am
DPK 4:32am
WYD 4:37am
FMD 4:42am
BPG 4:47am
HVL 4:52am
MIN 5:00am
JAM Arr5:14am
JAM Lv 5:15am
WDD 5:23am
NYK 5:34am

Gamer - Thank You for the revised times for Train #1905 from Ronkonkoma.
Moving up the train 9 minutes will be a help for the "6 AM Riders"

I crosschecked the Port Jefferson Branch schedule to see what the service options were for Westbury
and New Hyde Park for riders that formerly rode Train #2005 - trains before and after #1905
Westbury: Train before - 4:17 AM; Train after - 5:22 AM
New Hyde Park: Train before - 4:28 AM; Train after - 5:33 AM
Arrival times are around 5 AM and 6 AM respectively which are too early or late for 6 AM riders.
Connections at Hicksville for Westbury and from Mineola to New Hyde Park will mean a wait for the
same two connecting trains referred to in my last post that is now longer...

I compiled a revised schedule for Train #1905 adding Westbury and New Hyde Park stops*:
RON 4:10 AM
CI- 4:17
BWD 4:22
DPK 4:27
WYA 4:32
FAR 4:37
BPG 4:42
HVL 4:47
WBY*4:52
MIN 4:57
NHP*5:01
JAM 5:12/5:13
WDS 5:23
NYP 5:33 AM

Train #1905 adds a Woodside stop at 5:23 AM - Train #2005 ran nonstop from Jamaica to Penn Station.
With the previous schedule there was a following train from Jamaica stopping Woodside at 5:45 AM.
New Timetable - Jamaica to Woodside: train before 4:50-4:58 AM; train after 5:41-5:49 AM.

Train #1905 is the first of what may be many service adjustments to the new LIRR timetable -
This revision was made even before the new train ran for the first time which was impressive.
There must have been feedback from #2005 riders about the new schedule times as I figured
correctly there would be - could our topic have any influential readers that have taken notice?

New Schedule thoughts TO BE CONTINUED...MACTRAXX

CMC: The Ronkonkoma-Greenport Scoot service should be discussed in its own stand-alone topic
instead of being "lost in the shuffle" among the major systemwide schedule changes going into effect
TODAY 2/27 as of my post time of around 2 AM...A discussion about improvement along with some
historical background about this 46 mile segment of the Main Line can be quite interesting -
Miles from LIC: Ronkonkoma 48.3; Riverhead 73.3; Greenport 94.3 for the record from a LIRR ETT.
"Ronkonkoma-Greenport Scoot: Past, Present and Future" can be the new topic title...

Everyone - February 27, 2023

The prime problem with diesel service is the limitations of the amount of equipment available.
During peak East End summer season as example the fleet is literally stretched out to its limits.
At some point more cars and locomotives should eventually be added as the DE/DM 30 and C3's
are now pushing their 24/25th year of service (1998-1999) and get renovation or overhaul work.

With many more MU trains operating running limited Port Jefferson diesel trains to Hicksville
has ended - The Main Line west of Hicksville will now offer base service of four trains per hour in each
direction seven days per week - five west of Mineola at times including Oyster Bay trains. This level
of service is unprecedented outside of weekday peak hours for the center of Nassau County.

At some point express service bypassing Jamaica will return when an idea of how LIRR ridership is
going to be divided between the two Manhattan terminals especially during weekday peak hours.
If there is large enough ridership demand for given trains to have limited stops LIRR planners can
look into offering new express service to Penn Station and Grand Central in the near future.

Woodside, Forest Hills and Kew Gardens are now going to be served in a manner that trains
stop at ONE of these three stations between Penn Station or Grand Central and Jamaica.
The mention is to keep trains moving along on what is a now even busier segment of the
Main Line west of Jamaica under the new timetable. More riders to these three stations
may have to "Change at Jamaica" depending on the new origin and destinations of trains.

I agree that this new LIRR schedule is going to be a major learning curve for **EVERYONE**
employees and passengers alike. Commuters are creatures of habit - no one likes ANY changes
to their specific routines especially when it works for YOU in the course of YOUR day...MACTRAXX