The big ax just fell. Long distance to 3x/week.

At some point, states will have to step in to fill the LD gaps in their corridors, as SR noted. Charlotte - Atlanta, Charlotte - DC, are just examples of what used to be the DC - Atlanta "corridor", and are now discussed in the context of SEHSR (HSR likely being 79mph). Baton Rouge is another one, and others here have pointed out logical city pairs along the Sunset. And there's a good discussion going on now about Montana in the North Coast Hiawatha thread. I'm kind of in the middle on this; in many ways, I agree with Mr. Norman. However, I look at VIA's Toronto - Vancouver LD, and wonder why Amtrak can't make such work on the Empire Builder or Zephyr. Some of the other services like the Texas Eagle, the Southwest Chief, the Sunset? Probably beyond hope. The states will have to step in to save them.

SouthernRailway wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 7:12 amMany of the LD routes could be corridors again--and based on population growth, should be.

They serve few people only because there are few trains on them.

...

In any event, it's insane to maintain an infrastructure (stations, maintenance, crew bases) to support only one train a day in each direction. Airlines surely wouldn't bother maintaining airports and other infrastructure to serve only one flight a day. Surely there are some efficiencies that could be done to address this.

Thank you!! I’ve been saying this for years. It does need to come with a broad effort to make Amtrak a viable travel option AND pull passengers toward it from other modes.

bostontrainguy wrote:Um if I remember right, Joe had eight years to do something to make Amtrak really special. I was excited and thought at the time that rail was in for a great ride including some actual high-speed trains around the country and on the NEC. Nothing much happened. "Amtrak Joe" is more of a passenger than an engineer.

Also true. I will say that in the two years he & Barry had before the red signals went up from both houses of Congress, they used ARRA to dump a lot of money into passenger rail that has returned dividends (and a lot that hasn’t, due to state government either refusing the money or mismanaging it. You know which ones I mean.)

Tadman wrote:I think it's important to distinguish being "Anti-long distance" from being pragmatic or realistic.

...

This is why I keep advocating for a functional and useful regional network. You can serve something like 40 states (look at my map) very well and sell lots of passenger miles. You can get cars off the road, help pollution and traffic, and stimulate economic development in a meaningful way.

Fair point. I think Amtrak could very well run a VIA-like service for its west coast LD trains - even if the ax fell on the Sunset Limited and Cardinal, I don’t see why the Coast Starlight, Empire Builder, California Zephyr, Southwest Chief, Texas Eagle and City of New Orleans wouldn’t continue. Same with the Lake Shore Limited, Capitol Limited and potential Broadway Limited section, Crescent, Silver Service, and Auto Train. One special thing Amtrak does that VIA does not do is operate their LDs on Corridors - the Canadian terminates at Toronto, the former Ocean and Chaleur at Montreal. In short, Amtrak’s LDs are integral parts of corridors themselves - all of them.

And a quick note: as much as we say the Capitol Limited should be two corridors split at Cleveland, that train is only 130 miles longer than Boston-Norfolk or Windsor-Montreal. Chicago-to-NEC service has a lot of merit and isn’t absurdly long for a corridor. Let’s treat it as one and see what happens ridership-wise.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am At some point, states will have to step in to fill the LD gaps in their corridors, as SR noted. Charlotte - Atlanta, Charlotte - DC, are just examples of what used to be the DC - Atlanta "corridor", and are now discussed in the context of SEHSR (HSR likely being 79mph). Baton Rouge is another one, and others here have pointed out logical city pairs along the Sunset. And there's a good discussion going on now about Montana in the North Coast Hiawatha thread. I'm kind of in the middle on this; in many ways, I agree with Mr. Norman. However, I look at VIA's Toronto - Vancouver LD, and wonder why Amtrak can't make such work on the Empire Builder or Zephyr. Some of the other services like the Texas Eagle, the Southwest Chief, the Sunset? Probably beyond hope. The states will have to step in to save them.

I usually would support more regional trains along the routes of LDs, whether they be supported by the state or private corporations. With this in mind, I do feel that there should be at least one daily LD train going across the entirety of the route. For example, the Southwest Chief could be divided into numerous corridors, such as Chicago to Kansas City, Kansas City to La Junta, La Junta to Albuquerque, Albuquerque to Kingman, and Kingman to LA. However, there would still be the need for one LD across the entire Chicago to LA route in order to serve passengers who want a direct trip between the regional routes, such as Chicago-Albuquerque or throughout the entirety of the Chicago-LA route. (I think I used this example a few months ago, but this concept can be applied to the current circumstances we have in terms of cutting back LD trains.)

OK, even though railroad Labor Relations is part of my CV, I don't know the answer to this one.

How far will the rights of a displaced Passenger Engineer or Conductor carry him/her?

Assuming they would even wish to stay with Amtrak instead of trying to hire on with their host road, could they "exercise" in one Zone, such as a Corridor where there still are trains to run, or the other?

How about New York Dock (relo payments)? How about displacement payments under Appendix C-2 ?

Enquiring mind wants to know.

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am However, I look at VIA's Toronto - Vancouver LD, and wonder why Amtrak can't make such work on the Empire Builder or Zephyr,

I think that's what Amtrak would like to do (run one or both of those as a Canadian like train and break up or ditch the rest) but cannot due to the pushback they have gotten. I think they would have much preferred to maintain the Zephyr, Builder, and Coast Starlight daily and suspended the Chief, Texas Eagle, and Sunset Limited, but that probably would not have flown. Also I think they'd rather truncate the Crescent to Atlanta and run it daily instead of running it 3x daily the whole route. But if they don't treat the routes all equally they are likely to get a thrashing in the next spending bill and they may anyway with the 3x operation.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:00 pm

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am However, I look at VIA's Toronto - Vancouver LD, and wonder why Amtrak can't make such work on the Empire Builder or Zephyr,

I think that's what Amtrak would like to do (run one or both of those as a Canadian like train and break up or ditch the rest) but cannot due to the pushback they have gotten. I think they would have much preferred to maintain the Zephyr, Builder, and Coast Starlight daily and suspended the Chief, Texas Eagle, and Sunset Limited, but that probably would not have flown.

I believe (personal opinions from what execs have said and some other observations) Amtrak likes the following portions of the long distance network and is what I'd expect would remain if Amtrak execs had their way:

Only four "as they currently stand" trains:
- Builder
-Zephyr
-Coast Starlight
(The above with improved amenities a la the VIA Canadian)
- Auto Train
(Need I say more? It's really a different beast than the rest of the Amtrak network and remained sustainable during the pandemic)

I think they would also retain some other long distance corridors and portions of them but they'd probably look very differently. There may be others but these are the ones I see as sure things:
- Northeast - Florida (but probably reconfigured from the current Silver Service to enable more corridor travel)
- Northeast Corridor - Chicago (but probably altered in some way rather than the current Lake Shore/Capitol/Cardinal setup and instead corridor driven)
- Northeast - Atlanta

Surely would be axed:
- Crescent south of ATL
- Sunset Limited
- Cardinal
- Southwest Chief
- Texas Eagle (though I'm on the fence on this one)

Tadman's map is probably not that far off from what the network would look like with the exception of the four trains I mentioned that I believe would be retained.

lordsigma12345 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 2:14 pm

Jeff Smith wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:06 am However, I look at VIA's Toronto - Vancouver LD, and wonder why Amtrak can't make such work on the Empire Builder or Zephyr,

I think that's what Amtrak would like to do (run one or both of those as a Canadian like train and break up or ditch the rest) but cannot due to the pushback they have gotten.

Over at the VIA Forum. I noted:

Gilbert B Norman wrote: ↑Tue Jun 16, 2020 3:08 pm Corner bet---

Both the "Canadian" and "Ocean" are done for.

If Amtrak succeeds is whacking their LD system by 57% (Daily to Tri-Weekly) then "the opposition" can forcefully argue "no one needs 'em anymore". With the "two a week" frequency, plus showing up "whenever", it's hard to make any kind of "essential" argument. The unreliability means the tour operator will plan itineraeies without. What if there were a "rail to cruise to fly home" package offered by a high end operator and marketed to clientele for whom inconvenience is not in the lexicon?

Need I say more?

This statement of mine has yet to be refuted at that Forum.

If the current crisis is what Amtrak needs to be rid of thelr "biggest losers" - the LD's, they should go for it - the quicker the better while there is an Administration in place more receptive than a successor administration might be.

Here they come:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... spartandhp

Amtrak is surely counting the days.

gokeefe wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 10:48 am

gprimr1 wrote:On the other hand, the timing is weird, since traffic is already been cut down due to lock downs, and things are reopening now, the only thing I could think of is maybe they are preparing for a second wave?

Pretty sure it's related to the expiration of CARES Act funding for transportation. The airlines are up against the same date. So far they have avoided mass layoffs but once the federal support ends on September 30 they won't have a choice.

Amtrak did the best they could to keep everyone working. Im sure they were required to anyways but I still give them credit for trying. I think they could have justified more cutbacks than they did.

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Something not noted in all this, is the airlines are widely expected to make mass cuts in their employees and schedules when the CARES funding expires in October too. So this isn't limited to Amtrak.

With the tri-weekly schedule, would the Eagle still run daily between CHI-STL to provide an additional corridor train?

Seems to me to be the ideal time to try some different schedules / service patterns etc. Got the rolling stock , staff , and slots on the railroads to do so .
We've covered all the possiblities on here several times. Afew that stick out to me , Daylite service Washington -Atlanta, Chicago -Memphis, alternate schedule CHI-MSP , splitting/ combining the silver services.

bostontrainguy wrote:Um if I remember right, Joe had eight years to do something to make Amtrak really special. I was excited and thought at the time that rail was in for a great ride including some actual high-speed trains around the country and on the NEC. Nothing much happened. "Amtrak Joe" is more of a passenger than an engineer.

You could say much the same about the difference between being President and Vice President.

Also worth noting that all the fancy new rolling stock showing up right now in the Northeast, the Mid West and the West was funded during the previous administration marked by the tenure of a different "Amtrak Joe" (R.I.P.).



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Gilbert B Norman wrote:This statement of mine has yet to be refuted at that Forum.

If the current crisis is what Amtrak needs to be rid of thelr "biggest losers" - the LD's, they should go for it - the quicker the better while there is an Administration in place more receptive than a successor administration might be.

Mr. Norman,

Please allow me to refer to "Perkowski's Saw" ... Congress controls these programs not the White House. These trains have just as much of a future as they had a past. Certainly no caviar on "The Chief" but otherwise, "yes" the Builder will return to "once a day each way" in due course.



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bretton88 wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 6:18 pm Something not noted in all this, is the airlines are widely expected to make mass cuts in their employees and schedules when the CARES funding expires in October too. So this isn't limited to Amtrak.

Not quite. The schedule cuts were already made in April.

April was about 10% of the Year Over Year flying, and it's been slowly ramping up. July schedules will be closer to 25-30%, and come September, it may be closer to 50%. As long as the international borders to Canada/Mexico are closed, and big cities like NY and DC remain largely locked down, schedules probably won't grow much beyond that.

bostontrainguy wrote: ↑Thu Jun 18, 2020 8:05 am

mtuandrew wrote: ↑Wed Jun 17, 2020 7:01 am While a lot of folks are working to get four years of Joe + eight of the woman who would be Veep, let’s not forget what was supposed to happen in ‘16. So, train advocates will need to be prepared to fight for service by hook or by crooks.

Um if I remember right, Joe had eight years to do something to make Amtrak really special. I was excited and thought at the time that rail was in for a great ride including some actual high-speed trains around the country and on the NEC. Nothing much happened. "Amtrak Joe" is more of a passenger than an engineer.

Eight years plus a friendly congress in both houses for part of that. They did a nice job of rehabbing a raft of cars, but otherwise President Obama and Vice President Biden's legacy to Amtrak, in President Obama's own state no less, is that failed Illinois High Speed Rail.

I'm not pulling for Biden to win but if he does I have high hopes for Amtrak. But it seems the "Amtrak Joe" appelation is one of convenience, not policy intent. Acela is truly the best way to get an important person from Wilmington to DC.