Amtrak 91 - CSX Collision Cayce, SC - 2/4/18

Telecomtodd wrote:For what it's worth, I agree that the switch seems to be the focal point for the accident investigators. However, to the points made that PTC would have prevented this one are just wrong. Assuming the loco rolled over a transponder, got its TSR and applied full braking, both trains had no chance. Even if it was traveling at only 32 MPH (which several folks question), the time to hit the brakes once the train went through the switch and moved to the siding was so slight that it would not have mattered much. Add that the crash location's track has curvature so it couldn't see the freight from afar, it being 2:38 AM, and that #47 could have been traveling faster than 32 MPH all adds up to disaster. So no, PTC would not have mattered.

However, one point to note is how fast it was really traveling...because if it hit that switch at higher speed, I'm surprised the whole train didn't derail.

The questions should be about how that switch is actuated (manual or remote), whether it was manually locked out (obviously not) or whether a sensor failed and dispatch didn't realize the switch hadn't moved. Or someone simply didn't move the switch at all...

Without knowing why this happened I can't explain how PTC would have prevented this. However, this is exactly one of the things PTC is supposed to prevent under law - in this case to prevent at-speed train-on-train collisions. So based purely on that, PTC likely would have prevented this collision (or at least mitigated it to a far lower speed). For example, if signals were at stop because a hand-throw switch was open, PTC wouldn't have let them past the signal - they wouldn't have even gotten to the switch. The scenario you describe would have needed someone to open the switch right in front of the train - which amounts to something else entirely. So again, it is indeed likely this is another PTC-preventable incident.

59 MPH, CSX was stopped on the siding where it belonged, 2 Amtrak crew killed, 116 injured. Focus is on the switch and how #47 managed to get onto the siding.

http://www.wral.com/south-carolina-trai ... /17312782/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

https://www.transportation.gov/briefing ... ementation PTC systems are designed to prevent certain train-to-train collisions, over-speed derailments, incursions into established work zones, and trains routed to the wrong tracks because a switch was left in the wrong position.

I think this means before the train gets to the switch, not after.

Telecomtodd wrote:59 MPH, CSX was stopped on the siding where it belonged, 2 Amtrak crew killed, 116 injured. Focus is on the switch and how #47 managed to get onto the siding.

Wrong side failure?

Sad news.

Signal work/a signal suspension was in place.

Conjecture:
Maybe combined with an error by the freight crew (not tied up correctly/left switch open).
CSX dispatching is in process of moving to Jacksonville, so a lack of experience on that desk could have been an issue.

Mackensen wrote:

adamj023 wrote:

Nasadowsk wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote: Coming from the air transport industry, within which there has not been a passenger fatality on a US flagged carrier since 2009 (Colgan Air BUF), not any on US soil since '13 (Asiana - Korean flagged - SFO), and none worldwide during '17, Mr. Anderson must wonder "what kind of demo derby did I sign up for?"

It's pretty obvious. The bigger question is - why does the FRA not give a crap?

Any airline with Amtrak's 'safety' record, would have been grounded long ago.

Amtrak was operating a train which was not generating profitability and now legal expenses have to be paid as well as damage to the equipment. The accidents are happening way too frequently across the system. They are still playing catchup in New York City fixing outdated infrastructure.

It seems more than likely more crashes will continue to occur unless major changes are made.

Amtrak's had what, 11 passenger deaths since Bourbonnais in 1999? Every death is a tragedy, but I wouldn't go so far as to say there's a major problem. The Cascades and Northeast Regional wrecks are undeniably Amtrak's fault. The GOP charter crash is not; it's a grade-crossing accident on CSX territory, currently leased to the Buckingham Branch. We have no idea what caused this accident. Three unrelated incidents in two months amount to statistical noise.

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I think there are some important points here. The GOP charter crash was in incident caused by a truck, not Amtrak, and there are 250 fatalities a year from stuff like this, all preventable. You learn in driver education never to go around gates and if your car stalls on the tracks, GET. OUT. If you wouldn't drive the wrong way on a divided highway, you shouldn't go around the gates.

As for Amtrak's bottom line, per Adam's comments, profitability has nothing to do with it. The post office doesn't make a profit, neither does essential air services. The government subsidy is there to allow the railroad to safely operate trains and pay for maintenance and training.

With regard to Nasadoswk's comments about the FRA, I agree with reservation. We have no idea what caused this yet. It could be CSX or even vandals playing with a manual switch. While I hope the FRA has something tough to say about the Washington accident, I have no position on this one yet as there are too many unknowns so far.

Any reports on if the freight was stopped vs. parked?

Irony: I just made reservations on this route last night. It's 2 weeks away, so hopefully it will be running....

I’m in Columbia quite often but I can’t remember this siding. Saw on the news where Red Cross has set up a shelter in Cayce Middle School. My sympathies are with the crew lost and their families. So many injured.

farecard wrote:Any reports on if the freight was stopped vs. parked?

Official sources are using "unoccupied".

The governor of South Carolina said at his press conference:

The CSX train was stationary on the tracks, "awaiting a later movement," when the collision occurred, Gov. Henry McMaster said in a press conference Sunday morning. It's not believed anyone was on that train. Link to CNN quote

The train's engineer and a conductor have been named as the two Amtrak employees killed in the collision: https://twitter.com/thestate/status/960201562894229504" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Zanperk wrote:

farecard wrote:Any reports on if the freight was stopped vs. parked?

Official sources are using "unoccupied".

Judging from the look of that lead CSX unit, it's a good thing - otherwise there may have been 2 additional fatalities.

Trinnau wrote:Without knowing why this happened I can't explain how PTC would have prevented this. However, this is exactly one of the things PTC is supposed to prevent under law - in this case to prevent at-speed train-on-train collisions. So based purely on that, PTC likely would have prevented this collision (or at least mitigated it to a far lower speed). For example, if signals were at stop because a hand-throw switch was open, PTC wouldn't have let them past the signal - they wouldn't have even gotten to the switch. The scenario you describe would have needed someone to open the switch right in front of the train - which amounts to something else entirely. So again, it is indeed likely this is another PTC-preventable incident.

Yes, PTC is supposed to monitor for misaligned switches, turnouts, or points; depending upon where you live in the world.

Just the way that first Amfleet car is buckled shows the huge amount of force involved. I presume the underframe bent to cause that damage.

Train was going 57 mph under the I-26 underpass, which was the last GPS report (scroll down and click on last red dot).

https://asm.transitdocs.com/train/2018/2/3/91" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;