Metro-North New Haven Line Penn Station Access

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 8#p1183375" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yes they do. One afternoon per week they leave Fresh Pond and head back to New Haven with a train of empties. The fully-loaded stone trains heading west to Fresh Pond from New Haven are nighttime jobs, however. Have to switch the quarries during business hours. If they don't get their empties back on-time they have nuthin' to dump their rock into. That schedule has to be what it is for Connecticut's large trap rock industry to keep humming, and it's been that way since long before Metro North or Amtrak existed.


It's not a daily freight like the CSX locals. You're talking 1 daytime time slot per week. So don't overestimate the impact. It's a very small drop in the bucket compared to what daily freight traffic has to be dispatched around on other very congested parts of the NEC.

NHAirLine wrote:That makes sense. What does that translate to in terms of trains into Penn? 20% fewer? 30% fewer? 40%?

No one knows right now what will happen when LIRR starts operating to GCT. For many years the LIRR and Long Island politicians said one of the benefits of spending billions on ESA was when it opened it would make room for Metro-North in Penn Station. So everyone would win. Over the last few years LIRR has started hedging. Now they're talking about hanging onto slots to "provide for future growth." (And you can't really blame them for that, it's just smart business.)

However, there is another factor here which I think will become more important as the actual start of service draws closer. Money.

It's going to cost LIRR a lot of money to operate into GCT. They already require a cash subsidy of close to a half-billion dollars a year. If you index for inflation by 2019 the subsidy will probably be well over $500 million a year. Then they will need conservatively another $50 million a year to run ESA.

They may find themselves in the unenviable position of a) asking NY State for more subsidy and b) simultaneously fighting reducing service into NYP despite what will probably be a big drop in ridership. That's going to be a hard position to defend.

Tommy Meehan wrote:

NHAirLine wrote:That makes sense. What does that translate to in terms of trains into Penn? 20% fewer? 30% fewer? 40%?

No one knows right now what will happen when LIRR starts operating to GCT. For many years the LIRR and Long Island politicians said one of the benefits of spending billions on ESA was when it opened it would make room for Metro-North in Penn Station. So everyone would win. Over the last few years LIRR has started hedging. Now they're talking about hanging onto slots to "provide for future growth." (And you can't really blame them for that, it's just smart business.)

However, there is another factor here which I think will become more important as the actual start of service draws closer. Money.

It's going to cost LIRR a lot of money to operate into GCT. They already require a cash subsidy of close to a half-billion dollars a year. If you index for inflation by 2019 the subsidy will probably be well over $500 million a year. Then they will need conservatively another $50 million a year to run ESA.

They may find themselves in the unenviable position of a) asking NY State for more subsidy and b) simultaneously fighting reducing service into NYP despite what will probably be a big drop in ridership. That's going to be a hard position to defend.

Their motivations on that make sense, BUT if Penn access was part of what they used as a bargaining chip to get ESA, then they should make good on that, at least in some limited fashion. That's quite true. Aren't all commuter operations subsidized to one extent or another? I know MNRR is one of the better ones in terms of farebox recovery, but IIRC, they still need something like a 20% operating subsidy, and that's even before capital is amortized, like bridges, M-7/8s, etc.

That's debatably after rush hour. It sounds like by the time they merge on to the New Haven Line, the rush hour traffic has gotten ahead of them, and continues to get farther ahead by the time they get back to CH.

According to the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) in 2011 (the most recent year on file) the farebox recovery ratio for the three Metropolitan Area agencies are:

LIRR - 53.4%
MNR - 62.3%
NJT - 59.1%

Link - scroll down on page to 26. / chart opens in Excel spreadsheet

Per the Long Island Rail Road and Metro-North figures in the March 2013 report, the two roads' net cash deficit (subsidy) in 2012 were:

LIRR - $591 million
MNR - $309 million

LIRR's deficit has really grown over the past two years. I'm surprised it's already this high. One cautionary note is, I believe LIRR uses a slightly different accounting system which tends to inflate their cash deficit. Also noteworthy, Metro-North continues to carry more riders than LIRR, MNR 83.5 million in 2012 vs. LIRR 81.8 million in 2012. The Metro-North figure includes 1.9 million West of Hudson riders.

You can find 2012 summaries by going to the MTA site, pulling down the "Transparency" menu and selecting "Board Materials," then "Board & Committee Materials," and selecting the March 2013 MNR Committee report and the March 2013 LIRR Committee report. This link should take you to the "Board & Committee Materials" page. Then scroll down to find the March 2013 reports.

Figures on net cash deficits are on pgs. 100 (MNR) and 143 (LIRR). The ridership tallies are on pgs. 126 (MNR) and 159 (LIRR).

Tommy Meehan wrote:LIRR's deficit has really grown over the past two years. I'm surprised it's already this high. One cautionary note is, I believe LIRR uses a slightly different accounting system which tends to inflate their cash deficit. Also noteworthy, Metro-North continues to carry more riders than LIRR, MNR 83.5 million in 2012 vs. LIRR 81.8 million in 2012. The Metro-North figure includes 1.9 million West of Hudson riders.

Actually, that gap is really closing. Through June of this year Metro-North has only carried roughly 300,000 more riders than the LIRR (they're not on track to keep up their 1.7 million-riders lead this year!)

When the NY Connecting RR was built as a joint project by PRR/NYNH&H RR's,Hellgate had 4 main tracks,
when the NEC was turned over to Amtrak from the PC remains/Conrail,2 tracks were turned over to Amtrak,
the other 2 tracks were kept by CR,1 of the tracks was pulled/left to rot,the other became the Fremont Secondary
now under CSX control,used by the P+W to interchange with NY+A.
The Wire above the freight track(s) has been removed ages ago
The former 4 track main from Sunnyside Jct to Bay Ridge was freight trackage, now only 1 track remains along with
a few long interchange tracks at Fremont/Fresh Pond and the yard at Bay Ridge shared with PANY/NJ's NJ&NY switching line.
CSX control ends at Fremont,NY+A control's Fremont to Bay Ridge yard.
Both Amtrak and MNR allow Freights during the post pm rush/ overnight hours until the am rush starts,
the CSX Controlled Fremont Secondary Starts near Oak Point Yard.

The best thing to do now is wait for ESA to go online,and see how the ridership numbers change/shakeout.

P&W is currently 3 evenings a week, which might increase next year. They don't run if it's below freezing, so there's less traffic in the winter (though they'll still roll so long as it's warm enough to mine the rock).

DogBert wrote:P&W is currently 3 evenings a week, which might increase next year. They don't run if it's below freezing, so there's less traffic in the winter (though they'll still roll so long as it's warm enough to mine the rock).

Must mean business is rebounding. Trap rock loads are very construction-economy sensitive. Branford Steam's yearly tonnage statistics certainly fluctates wildly in direct resonance with the economy. The degree to which it was down the last 3-4 years was huge enough that it had to have left P&W with a lighter schedule. BSRR shed over 40% of its annual tonnage when the economy tanked. It's unequivocally healthy if P&W is adding days and coming closer to a good construction economy's schedule to Fresh Pond.


Hey, can't pay for the New Haven Line if the state's trap rock business goes splat. That industry is so important it has tangible effects on the entire CT economy and the state's revenue intake. Big-picture it's much more a blessing than a curse that the Stone Train's running full and with good regularity.

Tommy Meehan wrote:According to the American Public Transportation Association (APTA) in 2011 ... the farebox recovery ratio[s] for the three Metropolitan Area agencies are:

LIRR - 53.4%
MNR - 62.3%
NJT - 59.1%

I'm no expert on public transport economics, but those figures don't look all that bad. Assuming the cost side includes stuff like infrastructure, debt service, capital expenses, etc.

LIRR - 53.4%
MNR - 62.3%
NJT - 59.1%

amm in ny wrote:I'm no expert on public transport economics, but those figures don't look all that bad. Assuming the cost side includes stuff like infrastructure, debt service, capital expenses, etc.

For a private carrier they'd be toxic. However, they are only operating costs. They probably include debt service because the MTA sells bonds backed by fare revenues, but not infrastructure or capital expenses. The Metro-North capital budget for 2010-2014 is $1.8 billion or over $350 million per year. Here's a link to an MTA pdf on the 2010-2014 capital improvement program. A summary for Metro-North is on pg. 84. A summary for LIRR's capital budget ($2.8 billion) is on pg. 60 and does not include money for ESA.

F-line to Dudley via Park wrote:

DogBert wrote:P&W is currently 3 evenings a week, which might increase next year. They don't run if it's below freezing, so there's less traffic in the winter (though they'll still roll so long as it's warm enough to mine the rock).

Must mean business is rebounding. Trap rock loads are very construction-economy sensitive. Branford Steam's yearly tonnage statistics certainly fluctates wildly in direct resonance with the economy. The degree to which it was down the last 3-4 years was huge enough that it had to have left P&W with a lighter schedule. BSRR shed over 40% of its annual tonnage when the economy tanked. It's unequivocally healthy if P&W is adding days and coming closer to a good construction economy's schedule to Fresh Pond.


Hey, can't pay for the New Haven Line if the state's trap rock business goes splat. That industry is so important it has tangible effects on the entire CT economy and the state's revenue intake. Big-picture it's much more a blessing than a curse that the Stone Train's running full and with good regularity.

Interesting. I know of a number of the quarries, I didn't know it was that big of a deal... I guess we got the good cards when the glaciers dumped LI over there with no good rock...

Interesting numbers. I wonder what it works out to per line? It should pop up a bit if you take out WoH, and NHL should be even a bit better than the other two... I don't think anyone has ever built a sustainable business on commuter rail. It's something that has to be subsidized... Infrastructure is the killer. Amtrak is profitable on the NEC if you don't count capital spending.

NHAirLine wrote:
....
Interesting. I know of a number of the quarries, I didn't know it was that big of a deal... I guess we got the good cards when the glaciers dumped LI over there with no good rock...

Long Island is one big pile of gravel and sand scraped off the top layer of New England. They probably have plenty of both. But people get annoyed when you start digging giant pits a block away. Or even more than a block away.

http://www.newsday.com/long-island/town ... -1.5952315" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The 50-acre operation, tucked into the woods of Southampton Town and known as Sand Land, has operated since the 1950s. But neighbors of Wainscott Sand & Gravel Corp., including members of an exclusive golf club that costs $850,000 to join, say the pit's mulching operations are not legally permitted and add that the noise and stench make it a nuisance."

It's very likely that the company was there when they decided to move there. Apparently the golf club was opened in 2006

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/30/fashi ... d=all&_r=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;