Economy of observation cars

How expensive is it to operate an observation car as opposed to any other car (on a traditional American passenger train)? I've always heard that they were especially costly for railroads to operate because of the necessity of placing them at the rear of trains. Several pre-Amtrak carriers (most notably Santa Fe) either rebuilt observation cars into mid-train lounges or just did away with them all together.

But really, aren't plain vanilla coaches sort of the same way? Most passenger train carriers (including Amtrak) have had their own druthers about what cars go where and why in their passenger train consists. Coaches have to be positioned so that their seats are facing forward, and usually have a set place in the consist. In addition, a lot of trains aren't/weren't really broken down into their constituent cars following a run. They were just wyed and continued on as they were. Wouldn't that negate any financial inefficiencies in operating observation cars? It's not as though the rear of the car didn't have a coupler.

(Oops, sorry I just realized this belongs in different part of the forum.)

I'm not sure it is in the wrong forum, Dreezy. We don't really have a general Historical Passenger Operations forum, but this does apply for VIA, the occasional Amtrak move with Beech Grove, private car owners in the USA and Canada, and luxotrains around the world.

As for the question, I can't say for certain. Many train sets in Northeast Corridor rotation keep their same consists for what seems like days or weeks, only having cars drilled out when one has a mechanical fault.

The observation cars I've seen on National Train Day and the like (New York Central's Babbling Brook and a few others) seemed like first-class operations, and so as sleeping car patronage declined, so would the need for first-class observation cars, I'd think.

Someone else will have to post on the reversability of seats in modern coaches. But if you are going to wye the train, the obs would be turned with the rest of it.

A consideration would be that an obs car is a single-ended car, with a definite rear end.

One of the reasons railroads quit using obs was the coming of dome cars. With dome cars in the train, the GN, the NP, and the ATSF felt enough non-revenue space was being used on the dome level. The GN and NP rebuilt obs cars to other types. I think the ATSF may have too.

The DRGW took dome-obs-coaches and modified them for mid-train operation.

Traditional obs cars were fun to ride in, and gave a distinctive addition to the train.

There is no reason why an obs couldn't be the first car, except it would fly in the face of the convention that first-class cars belong on the rear of the train. And using it on the head end would block the view out the back.

The Reading Crusader carried an obs on each end so the train would not have to be turned.

Les

Desertdweller wrote: One of the reasons railroads quit using obs was the coming of dome cars. With dome cars in the train, the GN, the NP, and the ATSF felt enough non-revenue space was being used on the dome level. The GN and NP rebuilt obs cars to other types. I think the ATSF may have too.

That makes sense. As passenger rail operations became less solvent into the 60s, non-revenue space would have become a liability on all but the very best lines. Even the Super Chief stopped carrying them. Although I've seen pictures before that show Sandy Creek and Hickory Creek carrying the markers on the 20th Century Limited all the way up until 1968. Also it wasn't impossible to spot Amtrak LD trains in the 1970s sporting the ex-Burlington Dome-Observations.

Part of the problem with round-end observation cars in train consists was the need to turn them at each end of the route. No problem for Grand Central Terminal, Penn Stn., or Cincinnati Union Terminal as loops were available at the maintenance points or station.

At other points: Detroit required a wye movement at Bay City Jct., and at Cleveland a road crew had to be called to go out to Short Line Jct. with each of the 3 consists (2 Mercury's and the Empire State Express) which had to be turned.

It would be interesting to see where other railroads (such as IC in Chicago) turned the consists.

Obs cars were also a nuisance if cars had to be added or dropped en route. A station switcher would have to couple to the obs and pull the rear part of the train back while another one would pull the car(s) to be dropped or shove in the car(s) to be added, with the 1st switcher then replacing the rear cars. Adding or dropping a sleeper (or diner) was a lot easier when it could be done without breaking the train in two.

It would be interesting to see where other railroads (such as IC in Chicago) turned the consists.[/quote]

IIRC may depend on who took care of the cars & where the yard for them was. ATSF had their own wye as part of the coach yard, using their own switchers. There are pictures where an ATSF unit would pull the whole train with the lead units still providing heat for the "customers".

C&WI handled the cars for GTW, Wab, etc, Dearborn's other tenants. The IC may have been able to use part of the St Charles line to pull trains/back into Central station.

One very good reason, overlooked so far, is the increase in dining car dept revenues. The observation was traditionally the lounge area for Pullman passengers. Don't forget that, compared to Amtrak, the post war trains up thought the late 1950's carried lots of Pullmans on the average train. The diner, absent the provision of a second diner or coffee shop for coach passengers, was traditionally the divider between coach and Pullman. Say you were in the first or second Pullman behind the diner and you wanted a drink before dinner or lunch. Of course you could get your porter to bring you one in a room or get one at your table in the diner but if you wanted to get a leisurely drink or two before dinner you had to walk to the back of the train and then back to the diner. If the diner was busy, then you had to stand and wait.
Putting the lounge behind the diner solved all of these problems. The SP was on to this very early. All of the light weight trains built for it ( I realize the jointly owned pre war City of SF trains had an observation) ran with lounge behind the diner - special triple unit diner-kitchen-lounge cars were built for the Cascade and Lark overnight trains.
There was still the question of esthetics. The Sunset, later City of SF and Cascade all carried special end of train 10-6 Pullmans with a smoothed off flat rear end to carry the train name.
This was all strictly economics. The Shasta and Coast Daylights carried observation Parlor cars.
Exceptions were the Oakland section of the Lark added to the rear of the Lark at San Jose that had a Pullman operated combination sleeper, lounge, diner observation. Also the prewar Sunbeam gains on the T&NO carried parlor, lounge, diner observations.
I have ridden many Pullman's running backwards but, for the most part the train was almost always Yed at terminals.

In a classic passenger train layout, the dining car serves as a dividing line between coach class and first class cars. If the train is large enough, a cafe-tavern car ahead of the diner provides both lounge and lower-cost meals for coach passengers. There is generally a need for coach-class lounge space unless the train includes dome coaches.

A good reason to provide a lounge car behind the diner is to allow a space for first-class passengers to wait for space to eat in the diner. A second lounge on the rear (observation-lounge) provides first-class longe space removed from the diner.

Dining car and lounge space is usually considered non-revenue space (except for reserved parlor car seats). So, by providing dome seats (also considered non-revenue) in the coaches, it balances the the non-revenue space between coach and first class.

Coach class lounges and cafes can cut down on non-revenue space by being combined with other types of non-revenue cars, such as baggage-coffee shop; dormitory-lounge; dome cafe.

Les

It occurred to me that a few terms defined would be helpful to the younger readers of this thread.

Revenue vs. non-revenue space:
Revenue: seats and sleeping car space sold on tickets. Many long-distance trains sold coach seats on a reserved basis, even if there were no extra charge for doing so.
Non-revenue: seats not reserved, but available to paying passengers. This includes most seats in domes. Dome seats were designed for temporary use. Everyone riding in a dome seat would also have a regular seat in the lower portion of the cars.
Non-revenue seats also include seats in lounges and diners.

Most trains that had domes allowed all passengers to ride in the domes, but some trains had dome seats only for first-class passengers in certain cars.

Parlor car seats: Parlor car seats are not lounge seats (although some cars included both parlor and lounge portions). Parlor car seats are first class seats, sold on a reserved basis.

Dormitory: A car or portion of a car on long-distance trains for use as sleeping accommodations for the train crew.

Observation car: A car designed to be used as the rear car. It will have windows in its rear for a view of the track. Usually, these cars include some lounge seats in the rear end. Dome cars are not observation cars, but some observation cars include domes.

So not all the seats on passenger trains are revenue seats, and are not normally counted in train capacity. The longer the run of the train, the greater the importance of non-revenue space.

Sleeping car space is/was generally first class. Some railroads ran cars that provided sleeping car space at coach rates plus an accommodation charge. These included Slumbercoaches, and schemes involving up graded heavyweight equipment with names like "Touralux" or "Thrifty Sleeper".
Normal first class travel cost both a first class ticket and a room or parlor seat charge. The room charge could be split between the number of people traveling in the same room.

Les

Possbily the ability of sleeper passengers to bring their own stocks for consumption may have some bearing too.

Gilbert,

Quite true.

I think the first-class domes on the North Coast Limited were sleeper-domes. When the obs. cars were taken off, these cars were equipped with tables and used as lounge space (in the domes).

The GN full-length domes were reserved for first-class passengers. I have a slide I took as a young railfan of a GN Conductor coming to chase me out of a Great Dome for venturing into first-class country.

On the California Zephyr, the first-class only domes were the dome-obs. and the dome in the dorm-cafe car. The cafe portion itself was open to coach passengers. The 1956 Denver Zephyr carried a similar car, but I don't recall the dome being restricted to first-class passengers. Originally, the CZ dorm-cafe was run aft of the diner. According to Pat Dorn, the car was soon moved ahead of the diner in an effort to encourage the first-class passengers to use the lounge in the tail car. By the time I was able to ride the CZ (under CB&Q ownership) the dome in the dorm-cafe was open to coach class passengers.

David,

That opportunity is one that I have personally taken advantage of. I once took a long cross-country trip in first class. I brought along a bottle of New York wine and a bottle of California wine for consumption enroute on the appropriate train.

Les

I've got to admit it, I'd love either a real dome car on some of the single-level fleet trains (say along the LSL in the fall, sort of like the Adirondack) or even an end boattail observation car, but I understand the economics of it just can't justify it.

(and especially for an end car, I'd be willing to pay for a day pass or something from time to time.)