Pair left at side of TRACKS

EastCleveland wrote:The point is that the conductor -- and any other crew members who were fully aware of the situation -- actually allowed two women to get off the train, alone, in the dead of night, in the middle of nowhere.

Amtrak regulations aside, it's a matter of being a responsible, reasonably intelligent, fully-functioning adult. And frankly, that's one test that the crew members failed miserably.

Are you serious? These are grown, adult women. They would know whether or not they wanted to get off at a grade crossing or not. Yes, it's the middle of nowhere. Presumably they had a phone or they'd never have gotten off there.

ryanov wrote: Are you serious? These are grown, adult women. They would know whether or not they wanted to get off at a grade crossing or not.

Late Nite Hijinks on the Empire Builder: A Play in One Act
(the people and situation depicted below are entirely ficticious)

Passenger #1: "We demand that you let us off this train right now!!!!!"

Conductor: "I'm sorry m'am, we're not allowed to do that. It's against regulations. I'll call ahead to see what arrangements we can make to get you back to your station."

Passenger #2: "Absolutely unacceptable!!!!! I'm going to hold my breath until I turn blue!!!!!"

Conductor: "Ladies, it isn't safe to let you get off the train when we're not at a station, which is why the rules forbid us from doing so. This is an active railroad line and we're in the middle of nowhere. It's also very late, very dark, and you're by yourselves."

Passenger #1: "We'll call the police!!!! We'll have you arrested!!!! Stop this train!!!!!!!! Help!!!!!!!!"

Conductor: "Here's my cell phone, m'am. Just dial 911."

That is how a responsible grown-up handles things. If a passenger -- even one well past retirement age -- acts like a clueless 6 year-old and insists on doing something dangerous, it's up to the crew to follow regulations and prevent them from risking life and limb.

That's not simply part of their job description and how Amtrak protects itself against lawsuits. It's part of being an adult. One with a functioning brain.

-----------------------------

Amtrak Service Standards Manual covers thusly:

Train Attendants [TASC-Train Attendant Sleeping Car] to:
• Notify passengers individually from 10p.m. to
7a.m. Use a flashlight to locate passengers during
the night.
and
• Make certain the passenger is detraining at
their ticketed destination.

((Suggested [mandatory] "Good Night" announcement verbiage contains this sentence)):
If you are detraining during the night, please be sure
that you are at your assigned seat prior to arrival at your
destination so crew members can assist you off the
train.

Op crew (inbound conductor and assistant, as it's a crew change point) screwed the pooch by not detraining a middle-of-the night PAX, and elderly at that. Same for SCA.

Departing PAX may share culpability for electing to detrain two miles outside of station.
Amtrak's Marc Magliari cites "standard procedure" "wasn't properly carried out." Division Superintendent probably would agree with that.

Amtrak didn't handle this situation well at all, but whatever happened to personal responsibility? It's a passenger's job to get himself/herself off at the station, and the passenger should check the timetable and keep track of the train's progress to know when to get off. Helpful for the conductor to tell you when the train is approaching the station, but especially with that kind of alert, don't just sit there-- get ready to get off the train, and move towards the vestibule!

Mr. Southern, in view of that some of your postings made here suggest you are an attorney in real life, you surely know there is no allowance for personal responsibility in for hire passenger carriage.

At about age 14, my Mother and Father would trust me to ride into New York on my own. I can recall how on the New Haven the traps stayed open between Riverside and Mt. Vernon (low level platforms back then). It was simply common sense to stay away from them andd if you had reason to move between cars, you did so using great caution and handrails. Traveling Eastward and X-ing the Mianus, it was "a long way down" - and nothing much to stop you on your way to the drink. Being timid both as a kid and today, i always waited inside the car until the train was stopped at Riverside - others needless to say did not.

Like to see that on your road today, Mr. Railnut - don't know what they'd do if a door on an M-2 failed to close.

they cry like pigs, just read the crying on Connecticut Commuter Council facebook site. despite the ACMU's and standard coaches and RDC's only retired for a few years.
even the Bombardiers ran up the Branch with traps open before high level platforms were installed.
yup getting of train was so much easier then.

The sensible thing for the attendant to say is do you have a ride or can I call you a cab? Your station stop (St. Cloud) is coming up in 12 minutes. Call your ride now to make sure they are there.
Does anyone know if any coach passengers got on or off at St. Cloud? As a recent rider of the Empire Builder 5/30/31, I can tell you there are no traps on the Superliner coach cars. The door is in the middle of the car (each side) and if there is not an elevated platform, the assigned Amtrak employee opens the door and places a sturdy yellow stool on the existing platform and assists passengers off before assisting any boarding passengers.
At least once in the recent past unruly passengers have left the Coast Starlight in Oakridge, Oregon into police custody.
Would these ladies have been any better off if they had been left at the St. Cloud station in a February blizzard and then found that their cell phone was dead?
Does the Engineer have a list of how many coach and sleeping car passengers are getting off (or on) at each station? Normally there is radio communication between the Conductor and Engineer before the train leaves the station.
My wife and I were the only 2 to get off in Cut Bank MT on 5/31. No one got on. I had a rental car waiting for me no matter how late the train might have been.

Conductor will probably get 90 days on the street, if he's lucky. It'd be interesting to know how long he's been working cause this sure don't sound like something a conductor with a bunch of
years would do.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Southern, in view of that some of your postings made here suggest you are an attorney in real life, you surely know there is no allowance for personal responsibility in for hire passenger carriage.

At about age 14, my Mother and Father would trust me to ride into New York on my own. I can recall how on the New Haven the traps stayed open between Riverside and Mt. Vernon (low level platforms back then). It was simply common sense to stay away from them andd if you had reason to move between cars, you did so using great caution and handrails. Traveling Eastward and X-ing the Mianus, it was "a long way down" - and nothing much to stop you on your way to the drink. Being timid both as a kid and today, i always waited inside the car until the train was stopped at Riverside - others needless to say did not.

Like to see that on your road today, Mr. Railnut - don't know what they'd do if a door on an M-2 failed to close.

I am a lawyer, and if people would just use common sense, so many legal problems would be avoided.

The train's closing in on my station, and the on board agent has alerted me that my stop is coming up? I wouldn't just sit there; I'd move towards the door. Common sense.

I couldn't have put it better. It's not like these people had no warning and flashed thru their station at MAS.

That said, I think until the hearing is held and a ruling is issued, we can't say much more than: All parties involved made some bad choices. All parties involved could've used more common sense. There's enough facts in play here that we're not aware of, that to guess much more wouldn't make any sense.

SouthernRailway wrote: I am a lawyer, and if people would just use common sense, so many legal problems would be avoided.

The train's closing in on my station, and the on board agent has alerted me that my stop is coming up? I wouldn't just sit there; I'd move towards the door. Common sense.

Mr Railway, there is a perfectly reasonable explanation for their lack of action. If you read the article, you'll note:

They had chosen the 14-hour Amtrak route from Ann Arbor to Chicago to St. Cloud so they could chat and enjoy the train ride. In her previous trips on Amtrak, Rhode had no trouble getting to her destination.

"We always liked Amtrak and we thought heck ... we could sit in our little roomette and have a good visit," she said.

They were sleeping in the train car when a crew member knocked on their door to wake them, telling them that their stop was approaching. No one returned to tell the pair to retrieve their luggage and exit the train, Rhode said. "We were just sitting there waiting," she said.

It seems that they were traveling in a sleeper. If that is the case, they were no doubt waiting for the attendant to come and escort them to the door. This is not unreasonable given the policy:

k) Detraining
• Maintain diagram/manifest showing the times
passengers want to be called prior to their
destination.
• Plan sufficient lead-time to allow the passengers
to prepare for detraining or to complete their
meal in the Dining Car.
• It is recommended that passengers be
prepared at least 20 minutes prior to arrival at
their destination station.
Service Standards Manual No. 6 6-91
• Make certain the passenger is detraining at
their ticketed destination.
• Notify the Conductor immediately if unable
to locate a passenger.
• If a call is for a definite time, call the passenger at
that time, even if the train is delayed.
• If a call is for a certain amount of time before
arrival, allow for train delays and call passenger
at the specified time before arrival.
• In all cases, continue to call passengers until they
respond.
• Assist passenger with any luggage from
accommodation, and make certain that all
other luggage carried on is located.
• Remind passenger to check accommodation to
avoid forgetting anything.
• As passengers detrain, remind them to be careful.
• Thank passengers for riding Amtrak

It is a rare day indeed when I don't see the attendants leading the passengers to the door, so it is not unreasonable for the ladies (who clearly have traveled in the past) to assume they would receive their usual escort when they actually arrived at their stop.

The problem began once they realized there was a carry-by. Even if the passengers threw a fit, leaving them at a grade crossing wasn't a good idea. I've never been over the territory, but two miles out? How hard would it have been to ask the host carrier to back up to the station? If they said no, perhaps they could have made arrangements for them to remain on the train until they met the train in the opposite direction and done a transfer. CNOC might have ordered them to the next station and had a car waiting. There are many possible scenarios.

I'm interested in the CRM aspect. How many others will be culpable?

Don't know how informed you are but there's a lot involved with making a reverse move.

Knowing the traffic density on the BNSF Northern Transcon, I don't think a two-mile reverse move would have been warranted or easily obtained.

From what I can tell, "two miles past the St. Cloud Amtrak station, on the BNSF main" isn't a rural area, though it may appear that way from track level. In reality, it's hardly any distance from St. Cloud and its suburbs (such as they are), and quite close to several housing tracts. I'm guessing the grade crossing in question was at the Verso Paper plant. Not inviting for a pair of elderly ladies, but not desolate either.

This March was unseasonably warm in Minnesota, but I still wouldn't let my grandmother stand outside in that weather for an hour or more. Being after 1 am makes it worse, especially since the Amtrak crew was taking these ladies' safety into their own hands by not stopping at a lighted, level platform.

I think the best option available would have been to carry them to Staples, arrange for a cab to meet them and convey them to the woman's home in Onamia, and have the St. Cloud station agent inform the gentleman who was supposed to give them a ride. Shame there isn't a stop in Little Falls anymore, and that there was never a Northstar Commuter Rail station built in Rice - both of those would have been good, legitimate options for the crew.


Long story short, good intentions seem to have bit everyone in the butt.

is it a high level platform ? i still cant understand how they missed them getting off in the first place . surely someone was ready to put the portable step down for them ?.surely , if the passengers didnt turn up at the door , they would go check where they were , or did they just put it down to a manifest mistake ? its not like its a high pressure nec stop with hundreds to get off in 2 minutes .

David Benton wrote:is it a high level platform ? i still cant understand how they missed them getting off in the first place . surely someone was ready to put the portable step down for them ?.surely , if the passengers didnt turn up at the door , they would go check where they were , or did they just put it down to a manifest mistake ? its not like its a high pressure nec stop with hundreds to get off in 2 minutes .

The western trains, including this one, are bi-level and don't have doors that can use high level platforms.