Official Belfast & Moosehead Lake Thread - 2009

[MEC Calais Branch]

http://www.bangornews.com/detail/98826.html

Brooks rail restoration on track
Preservation society plans summer locomotive, rail bike tours
By Walter Griffin
BROOKS, Maine — The former Belfast & Moosehead Lake Railroad tracks will be carrying excursion trains and bicycles this summer if everything goes according to plan. The Brooks Preservation Society has entered into a lease agreement with the Maine Department of Transportation for restoration and operation of the Belfast & Moosehead Lake Railroad corridor with the intent of restoring railroad activity to Waldo County. The society has rights over track from Waldo to Burnham Junction.

[jscola30]

what about the Sweedish Steamer?


Best of luck to them, hopefully it all works out.

[merrman]

The steam engine still belongs to the BML Preservation Society and is up for sale,
as far as I know. Last rumor was that it had sustained substantial damage to the
fire box, crown sheet or something else fairly critical, and was in other ways not
in FRA compliance. Doubtful that it will ever run again.

[gokeefe]

I have to say something pretty radical in regards to the B&ML Swedish steam locomotive.

I hope it is disposed of to a location outside of Maine. If not then, honestly, and it gives me great pause as a historian and a rail advoacate to say this, I hope it gets scrapped.

With the 470 aging in Waterville with no restoration in sight, and the 501 in 'cosmetic display' status, the thought of resources and time being devoted to a steam locomotive that has no history in Maine other than on a tourist excusion operation in Waldo County churns my mind. If it is sold with the Swedish car set along with it, so much the better.

I love the quirky and cute operation that was the B&ML, it had great character but it would have had a lot more if they had devoted more time and effort to restoring genuine Maine artifacts instead of substituting imports for the sake of expediency. I think the people who run the City Point Central Railroad Museum get this part of it and have been doing a much better job of telling the history of the MEC including the B&ML branch.

http://www.citypointcentralmuseum.org/

The Brooks Preservation Society seems to have some good ideas as well. I hope they can use the Swedish assets to leverage capital funding, hopefully through a sale, that will then allow them to pursue preservation of truly worthy artifacts.

http://www.brookspreservation.org/

Preserve Maine Culture and History for future Generations!

[jscola30]

Wouldn't it be hard to locate existing equipment that can be used for service? I guess unless you get some former MEC units from Pan-AM. But what about MEC passenger cars?

You're idea that the loco should be scrapped seems a bit rash. How about donating to another museum or perhaps to the Maine Eastern RR?

[gokeefe]

I want to make it very clear that I would prefer disposition outside of Maine other than scrapping.

But if no further alternatives exist then why should anyone be 'restoring' a tourist train when there are other options available for restoration of historic equipment. The CPCRR claims to have a Maine Central passenger (#391, there is some question right now as to the origin of this car) car on hand.

For more discussion of CPCRR's Passenger Car please see the following threads:

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 77&t=49791

http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 77&t=56686

I'm sure in the short term it would be satisfactory. The B&ML also had one of the only operational B&M RDC-1's, even in non-powered status perhaps this unit would be good as well. I understand there was a diner/grill on the B&ML, utimately I'm sure people could find a way to restore that as well.

I think tourist operations are great in general. Maine seems to have more than it's fair share of successful operations. But note carefully the most sucessful operations, such as the Winslow, Wiscasset & Farmington Railway (WW&F), are the ones that most carefully and conscientiously restore and operate historic equipment.

Official Winslow, Wiscasset & Farmington Railway (WW&F) Discussion Thread: http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 26&t=47172

Another good example in the making: Downeast Scenic Railroad (DESR): http://www.railroad.net/forums/viewtopi ... 26&t=13635

There are always important concessions required to modernity for the sake of safety and comfort but neither of these reasons require good willed volunteers, donations and cooperation to restore a locomotive whose history in Maine is limited to the story of those who tried to keep the B&ML alive, not those who built it, ran it, and made it work for more than 125 years.

Historic operations and equipment have this appeal because they are a means to connect people to their personal, local and often times family history. Substitution of meaningless imports for historic artifacts such as #470 or #501 causes a loss of goodwill and interest in operations because ultimately this equipment does not represent the past which is an integral part of the story in the present and what the story will be in the future for the region as a whole. Although experiences such as 'dinner trains' and 'scenic rides' have inherent intangible value there is no substitution for a genuine historic operation.

The fact that these experiences are taking place on historic equipment, operated in a historic place, by local people who care about the railroad, just as others did in the past, is seen as an authentic cultural expression of the locality and to the more than casual observer it becomes obvious that these organizations are repositories of great amounts human social capital, which is what was ultimately lost in the changes that shook the railroads apart in the postwar era.

If small organizations like the WW&F can restore to existence something that had been completely lost to time then there is an example of the triumph of the human spirit over the tides of time, whether expressed in economic or corporate change. These exceptional organizations help prove to others the value of collective cooperation, hard work, dedication, and a belief in perserverance that are integral aspects of the character of those who pioneered the modern age settlement of the United States, and ultimately small remote towns in rural locales of the Maine territory that the iron roads served best.

Even casual visitors have a deep appreciation for efforts to maintain and display artifacts that help us all connect to the spirit of those who lead us forwards in times both good and bad despite immense and almost imcomprehensible suffering and sacrifice.

In the end B&ML became a railroad that existed for the sake of the train instead of the train existing for the sake of the railroad. Their purpose had changed from being the B&ML to being the operator of a 'locomotive with passenger cars'. Instead of being a vehicle for learning the railroad became simply a vehicle for pleasure and therein was the final compromise and loss to their mission which ultimately ended those operations for the time being.

[Cosmo]

Well, that all said, it's hard to find any steam anywhere East of the mississippi operating on it's "home rails."
WW&F's operable locomotive was originally built for a slightly wider guage line down south.
The Sandy River RR Park's engine, while authentically a Main 2'er never ran on the SR&RL.
The Valley RR's two currently operating locomotives, while both American and downright gorgeous machines, both came from well outside of New England and bear little resemblance to anything that ran on the Valley Line either before or durring the New Haven era, outside of being steam engines.
Currently, the VRR crews are working on restoring an engine built in China, that will, when finished, have a NHRR style cab and headlights and a few other smaller features, but will otherwise differ from any of the locomotives that plied that line.
Even the MNGRR's other 3 locomotives never ran in Portland!
So, I offer that while the "Sweedish Meatball" may not be authentic to Maine, it was for a time the only operating standard guage locomotive in Maine, and the B&ML did thier best to utilize it as best they could to keep the RR soluable so that it's history would not be completely lost.
Out of the few existing MEC steamers out there, did any of them ever traverse the B&ML? Of the 3 I know of, no. All would most likely have been way too heavy for that line. Even if they had been restored, while technically on the same RR, they would have been out of place on the B&ML.

Don't get me wrong, I hear what you're saying, I'm just offering an alternate viewpoint.

[Cosmo]

Oh, and Boothbay's lokies? All GERMAN!
One could reasonably argue that while not necessarily historic, the B&ML was continuing a New England tradition.

[gokeefe]

Cosmo,

The discussion is greatly appreciated.

I guess I just really feel that the root cause of B&ML's failure this time around was related to the numerous losses of authentic, historic, equipment and structures. They became an operation that no longer represented the B&ML.

I would rather not see another failed attempt at operation on the B&ML that ignores the lessons of the last few, notably, inattention to the importance that people place on historic and cultural authenticity in public attractions in Maine. Keep in mind, this time around they don't have the standard gauge monopoly anymore.

Quite frankly I think the thing that will draw large numbers of passengers to that operation, given how utterly out of the way it is, will be #470 or #501. Anything short of that I think simply won't be as interesting or attractive.

On another note are #470 and #501 really too heavy for the line? That would be very unfortunate if it was true.

[Cosmo]

Well, granted, all the other entities I mentioned DO seem to have preservation at thier heart, more so than the B&ML did when I last visited, even though the RR seemed to have it's share of historic equipment. It may be that what I saw (that was original to Maine,) was merely stored there (by City Point?)
Valley RR in CT has it's share of authentic NH cars, as well as others that, while not NH, are at least genuine American RR coaches.
WW&F has some of the few pieces left of the original as well as reconstructions made as acurately as possible/practical given thier resources.
THe MNGRR, while not on original 2' tracks, has preserved the last 4 operating M2F locos and much original rolling stock, and the Sandy River group has also preserved quite a bit of original SR&RL stuff.
I agree it would be nice to se an American standard guage steam locomotive in operation in Maine, even if it's not origianly from Maine, that could pull whatever original MEC rolling stock that could be mustered there.
I belive the heaviest steamer(s) on the B&ML were 4-6-0's, but I might be wrong. I do know it was a fairly light line. While the 470 (I'm certain,) passed through Burnham Jct on it's way to Bangor many times in it's day, I'm just as certain it never went down to Belfast. Wether the line's bridges/infrastructure could have handled it, I'm not certain. But certainly the line did not have the traffic to support a passenger loco that big and fast. Most of the line's passenger traffic was handled by 4-4-0's all the way till the diesel era.
The 501 and her sisters were made for the heavy grades of the Mountain Division and again, while the line's infrastructure may have been able to handle them, the traffic was not enough to justify such heavy power.
(That's what I meant by "too heavy.")

[gokeefe]

Cosmo,

I'm pretty sure they had some rolling stock that had been original to and operated on the B&ML for quite some time prior to state ownership of the line. Most of this stock now appears to be owned by CPCRR.

I guess it's a goodthing that at least there appears to be a possibility of one day operating MEC steam power on the line.

I wonder in a way which scenario would be better #470 at DESR, #501 at B&ML or #470 at DESR, #501 at CSRR, running on home rails over the Mountain Division or #470 at B&ML running close to home and #501 either at DESR or CSRR. That really would be an impressive feat of railroad preservation to see an MEC steam locomotive return to operation on the Mountain Division.

The fact of the matter is there is sufficient power to go around (in the highly unlikely event of a triple MEC steam operations restoration at B&ML, DESR, CSRR) if there were a way to transfer MEC #519 from Steamtown and restore it to operation in Maine or Northern New England. I certainly haven't seen any indication that Steamtown intends to restore it to operation anytime soon, on the other hand, in a site with such high exposure this is one static display that may have value simply as an 'Ambassador' for the Maine Central and New England Railroading in general.

Well I think I've gone far enough OT to stop now. Perhaps it's time to post to a dead thread somewhere re: MEC/B&M rolling stock that is available for restoration.

[bml1149]

I am also pleased to see that the BML will run again. I wish all the folks at the CPC and Brooks Society the best in making this happen. I do have some comments regarding the Swedish steamer and the remaining MEC equipment mentioned earlier. If any of you are in to collecting old employee timetables, they are an excellant source for finding out such things as what power ran where, ect. For example, the 470 could run on the mainline between Portland and Bangor, the Rockland branch and even made trips into North Station. It didn't run the Mountain Sub, the Calais Branch, or to Vancebore. The 501 could run the Calais Branch as far as Waukeag. As far as the Swedish Steamer goes, I was up close and personal with that locomotive for a while. I helped retube it and did various other things to it. It was a simple engine to work on and didn't have a lot of "extras" on it to maintain. It is a light engine and it would go on most any rail line anywhere. One of the reasons it was purchased in the first place was because it was well preserved by the Swedish State Railways for emergency use in case the electric rail equipment suffered a catestrophic failure. When it was determined they were no longer needed, they were offered for sale at a very good price. As I recall, the whole trainset was purchased and delivered to Maine for about a 1/2 a million dollars along with a bunch of spare parts. While I would like to see the 470 and 501 restored, there are some very practical reasons to go with the Swedish steamer, or a Chinese steamer as the cost of returning them to service is small when compared to restoration costs of the former.

[Cosmo]

Verry good points also.
While I'd love to see 470 or 501 restored, the $$ that it would take is well beyond what CP, Brooks or DESR could muster at this point. They need groups that are not struggling simply to maintain an active ROW first.
It would be nice for B&ML/Brooks to find a 4-6-0 similar in size/appearance to the #19 that seemed to be on many of the B&ML's passenger runs.
The Swedish steamer is, at least, the same wheel-arangement and comprable in size, and at the time was in an excellent state of repair! THAT made tremendous difference in the decisionmaking process. This is also why some american roads chose Chinese steam for operations and to augment thier rosters ov american steam. Reliability is a HUGE factor, and $$ saved in not having to restore a locomotive from "rusting hulk" status makes all the difference to a line with a shoestring budget.

[gokeefe]

Mr. BML 1149,

I strongly understand the reasoning behind the purchase. It is very clear to see that an operating train versus nothing at all, or a one coach lashup to a switcher, was a superior option in many ways, especially for an operation that was so often in such difficult straits as the B&ML was from probably at least 1960 onwards, if not earlier.

Obviously, even somewhat basic preliminary work would have been the best result possible for an investment of 500k into either #470 or #501, as opposed to a complete train.

There probably was a time when the management first decided to purchase the set where the decision made enough sense to be seen as viable in the long-term, especially because the B&ML was really at that point still a 'going concern' and an FRA regulated railroad and not a volunteer run organization operating beyond FRA regulation (which to this day the WW&F operation still is). I am aware of the fact that the Swedish engine was part of Sweden's, well-maintained strategic reserve of non-electric rolling stock for use in crisis or wartime operations during the Cold War. Britain also had a similar program well into the 1980's however the government there became so secretive about it that the existence of large numbers of main line steam locomotives became an urban legend in the British rail fan community. (OT but interesting ... )

Quite frankly I think an operation like the B&ML must rely on repeat business which with the model at hand, using equipment that had no significance beyond the live-steam aspect was difficult to maintain.

I rode in the Swedish cars and found the story neat but not compelling, and that is coming from someone who had an strong interest in rail and had ridden many miles in Europe to know the significance of the story and where the cars had probably been. In other words, I could understand the narrative context but the experience lacked elements that might drive me to return.

I would think you might understand better than those of us who have commented up to this point what other factors may have hurt the B&ML in the end, my impresssion is that the novelty of a ride on a steam train simply wore off, much as a child outgrows interest in Thomas the Tank. Then, because there was no deeper cultural or historic significance to the train, there was no way to sustain interest in the operation through other components i.e. diner service, structural restorations etc., much the way CSRR did with their reactivation of the Crawford Notch section of the Mountain Division, reopening of the stations at Crawford and Fabyans, and the further interest now being generated in the Bartlett Roundhouse or even the "Steam in the Snow" operations.

Your impressions on these points would be much appreciated.

[bml1149]

Gokeefe,
Here are my impressions:
1. The BML back in the '60's was a well run, profitable railroad. The poultry industry was a main staple of their business. They also had lumber, fuel and pulpwood for commodities to haul. When the poultry business folded up in the '80's, this was when things started to dry up as far as freight. There wasn't much other business left at that point in time.

2. If the $500,000 that was spent for the Swedish trainset was put into the 501 at that time, no doubt it would be running today. Back then, it was the intent of the 470 club to restore it and run it at CSRR and the idea of moving it out of No. Conway back then would have been unthinkable.

3. Management's thoughts on long term use of the Swedish train was indeed the idea back then. As I stated earlier, an operating steam train was purchased delivered and in service in less than a years time vs several years time to restore an American locomotive, plus in the condition it was in, it could run for several years before major work was needed.

4. A point about being FRA controlled. If your railroad crosses a public highway, shares a common corridor with another railroad who is controlled by the FRA, or crosses over a navigable waterway, then you are automatically under their jurisdiction. If you are not part of the general system of transportation(not carring freight)then you are not subjeect to all the FRA regs. It makes no difference if you are all volunteer, or not.

5. If you can get repeat business on a tourist train, that is good. You want your customers to come back and ride your train faithfully. The reality is that most tourists will ride once, maybe twice and it a "been there, done that". You have to be in a location where you have a steady stream of tourists coming through your area. If your organization is all volunteer, it takes off the curse of having to pay the help, but there are still many other costs that must be covered in order to survive. Bottom line, ticket sales will be the thing that will keep you going.

6. I do indeed understand what hurt the BML. Mostly, it is from what I just stated above.

The last thing I'll mention is that while I was there, I had the good fortune of meeting a couple of the "old heads' that worked there "back in the day". I learned a great deal from them. One of the men, Charlie Hall started there in the mid '30's. He saw the regular passenger trains, the transition of mixed freight to heavy grain traffic to the demise of the poultry industry. He told of arriving at the enginehouse at 4am to get the locomotives ready for the run to Burnham. Charlie passed away about 4 years ago. This is railroad preservation, too. Remembering and passing along his stories to "newcomers".
I hope I've answered your questions.