NJT locos on Amtrak

TR-00 every piece of rail equipment in USA is tested at speeds higher than its allowable speed. The Acela was tested at 168 but service max is 150
The Genesis was tested at higher speeds but Service max is 110 mph.
even the ALP is tested at higher speeds to determine if signal errors or other things happen the service spedd is and will be max 100 mph.

<i>Dutch, I don't know where you get your information, but the ALP-46 is presently capable of speeds above 100 MPH. In fact, during testing, special orders were given, and the '46 ran at 135 sucessfully for a stretch, and repeated this feat three more times.
</I>

Is the gearing for 100mph, though? i.e., at 100mph, the motors are at their rated maximum speed, or near it. Of course, if they're geared higher, than it's a software and paperwork issue.

IIRC, the FRA wants 10% over the maximum service speed, thus if they were stable to 135 (and were in fact capable of sustaining those speeds within the design parameters of the motors/inverters), they theoretically could be certified to 120. So you're 5mph less than an AEM-7, big whoop.

Of course, the computer/inverters can limit you to any speed you want. If NJT wanted, they could restrict the things to 80mph by punching a few buttons on the computer. It's probbably at the point on these units that there's simply a 'maximum allowable speed' parameter in the setup, and you don't even have to calculate out the Hz from the inverter stuff.

I don't get why NJT's DDs would be restircted to 100. MARC already is running 125mph certified DDs.

If they were certified for over 100 the NJT timetable would list them as 100 max but the Amtrak timetable would list them at 120 ?? with Amfleet equipment.
The Locomotive was ordered and designed for 100 mph max.

No, Dutchy, your statement is wrong. If Amtrak listed the '46 at 12-, that would allow NJT trains to operate at that speed, which is NOT what NJT wants. Remember that whatever is posted in the speed table is the allowable speed.

The '46 is NOT 'geared' for 100 mph.

Learn your subject. Exactly how many times have you run an ALP? Or been under one during an inspection? Or worked with the design engineers?

If its in Amtrak timetable at 120 mph it would still not relieve you from doing 100 mph due to the njt cars speeds .
your speed is still determined by slowest listed speed of any car in your train.
but even if the ALP-46 was run at higher speeds it was only on test trains and a form D had to be issued releving you off timetable speed instructions and by how much of a margin.
I have run lots of test trains that way.

Not getting involved with the '46 discussion, but rather answerign the question about the C5's, my engineer and I were talkig about this tonight, its still 90 mph on Amtrak, but in the current daily bulletin orders, it states that the MN C5's are in servcie, adn their numbers, and that their max allowed speed is 100mph IN NJT TERRITORY. Amtrak still has them and the NJT C5's at 90, and the newest Amtrak timetable and instructions goes into effect today, 4/26.

With the '46's, ive been in them over 100mph, but not very much though, and they seem to wanna keep giving more. They are just humming away at 100, seems like they aren't even working...........

Correct a AC locomotive unless its limited in inverter frequency will keep going higher and higher. we have tested the Genesis P32acdm at speeds over 110 but besides the roadforeman keeping the Train order and instructions, it does not mean its good for locomotive or gears

Dear TR00,

Learn your subject. Exactly how many times have you run an ALP? Or been under one during an inspection? Or worked with the design engineers?

Sorry, you should learn a bit better before posting wrong things.
Who have given you the info about allowed speeds > 100mph? Bombardier (old ADtranz) shurely not! And they've made this loco based on NJTs' requirements.
There is a mechanical limit and a approval limit for more than 100mph.
But there is a chance to increase it up to 110mph, BUT with less power, so it wouldn't make really much sense. And 125 mph? Than you can collect motor pices from the tracks within months! Much fun for that.
The gear is well for 125mph, but not the cage of the AC-Motors (NJT didn't want a speed more then 100mph, I don't know why).
And, for shure, THAT'S fact. I've worked with the design guys in europe in 200, 2001 and 2002.

best wishes
catch

So then it's simply an issue of gearing, catch? i.e., the design is capable of 125mph, but the gearing puts the motor at it's maximum intended speed at 100mph?

I'm guessing the desire to be geared to 'only' 100mph is because either they don't forsee faster running (well, gee, duh), or there's some tradeoff with 125mph gearing, though I'd imagine any tradeoff there is is less with AC traction anyway.

Oh yeah DRN - the inverters do have a max frequency. They can't keep going up forever (though at least some types can go higher than 50/60hz, small industrial ones go up to 400hz, but larger ones - they're a bit different)

I did not say they go on forever, The P32acdm we test ran at 125 mph it was still accelerating as if it was doing 40
the tradeoff for gearing a locomotive for 125 mph is a reduction in pull by about 25% and also the acceleration drops considerably.
my question on MNCR's P32's has always been why order a locomotive geared for 110 who in his best run never sees more than 90 mph.
with 90 mph gearing it could probably pull 2 cars more and get same acceleration as currently.

What did I post that was wrong, catch?

Considering that I was on the committee that designed the ALP-46 (for over two years) and worked during the acceptance tests, wrote parts of the operating manual, exactly what do I need to learn?

Of course, anyone can represent himself to have done what I said above, but regular posters here (Sirsonic, Jtgshu, Irishchieftain, CNJ_1526) will happily confirm that what I have said is the truth.

The NJT operator's manual lists the maximum speed as 100 MPH. However the "punch card" for the acceptance tests gives a "rated speed" as 120 MPH, and a top speed of 135 MPH. Night after night, towing 6 Amfleet cars, the 46 reached speeds in excess of 135 MPH, and sustained them, much to the joy of the Adtranz people. And that motor (4605) is still in daily service, none the worse for the wear.

TR-00 wrote:The NJT operator's manual lists the maximum speed as 100 MPH. However the "punch card" for the acceptance tests gives a "rated speed" as 120 MPH, and a top speed of 135 MPH. Night after night, towing 6 Amfleet cars, the 46 reached speeds in excess of 135 MPH, and sustained them, much to the joy of the Adtranz people. And that motor (4605) is still in daily service, none the worse for the wear.

It's interesting that this came up last year and no one said anything like this. I guess it may have been a period of time where you weren't reading as frequently or something, because the info would have been helpful back then.

The real question that I have then is why doesn't Amtrak want to run them at 120 to keep their trains on time. Or do they?

Yeah TR-00 is the real deal. I don't know him personally but have seen him in operation on NJCL trains quite a few times while standing in Secaucus back in December. If you go to the BLE site, you'll see him freezing his buns off way up there in Hornell, NY with the rest of the ergo team. I do know Jtgshu though and he thinks quite highly of him.

I do know Jtgshu though and he thinks quite highly of him.

Well now, I wouldn't go THAT far!!!! TR is a great guy, but he is still only a "DRIVER"

Now, if he could only keep the trains he's running on the tracks..... :D

We need you back soon TR, you gotta put all the dispatchers and Amtrak people back in their places again - they are getting out of hand!!!! (watch out Block Op wherever you are!!!)

Hello TR-00,

The 120 mph are not wrong, but ONLY for approval of the loco as I know, NOT for daily service. And 135 mph?

And as I know, the loco software has their limits far below 135mph for a normal duty. And yes, you always can tune parameters in software if you have the tools, thats no problem, and yes, for acceptance test Adtranz surely have done this, but I'm quite sure, NOT for daily use.
Or did you change the SW by your own, without any allowance?


I'm very sorry, but your whole postion sounds very crazy to me.
If you really have done this, you must explain later to your boss who is reponsible for any damages.
I cannot follow you in any way, that more than 100 mph is given free by Bombardier, so you (and NJT???) might do this at your own risk? Or who did this?
So, be happy

And than, the joy of the Adtranz people might be, that they are waiting for a great additional order to rework all the damaged rotor cages, which were designed only for maximum speeds of 100mph. And damaged gears, which were able for maximums of 125mph only.

Be happy, be fast.......and have much money to pay.

Nevertheless, best wishes to all

Catch