NHSL Extension Meetings / Workshops Announced

Everyone:

Jason Laughlin - Inquirer - In Transit: One group is saying "NO" to King of Prussia Rail Proposal
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/in-t ... posal.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This NIMBY group has a petition of 405 Upper Merion residents out of more then 30,000 who reside there that
are against the KOP rail line extension. Do this small minority of UM residents(?) actually represent the thought
of area residents and workers which would likely welcome a rail alternative to driving and traffic troubles?

This makes me wonder if these opponents would be against road construction projects that would be needed to
add more vehicle capacity to the "King of Pressure" area which we know just keeps the cycle alive - more roads
mean more vehicles and more traffic and...it literally becomes endless...

Once SEPTA chooses a single KOP extension plan they could further explain in depth what each aspect will be
and what effect the route and line would change the KOP area offering more access for area workers and to get
to and from Philadelphia by rail as an alternative to the perpetually congested Schuykill Expressway.

SEPTA needs to sell the positives of a NHSL extension and not let a small number of naysayers ruin it for
the majority who would welcome a clear alternative to driving in and around KOP. The pro-extension web
page shows that this project has support - but can they successfully counter the NIMBYs?

MACTRAXX

I realize there's a set of usual suspects that shows up regularly on philly.com, but the level of willful ignorance and overt prejudice in some of the comments is really disheartening. People admit they have no familiarity with the NHSL/P&W and never attended any of the meetings yet they "just know" it will bring all sorts of noise / crime / plagues of locusts right to their front doors. It makes you wonder how many other aspects of their lives are also ruled by misinformation and fear.

JeffK wrote:I realize there's a set of usual suspects that shows up regularly on philly.com, but the level of willful ignorance and overt prejudice in some of the comments is really disheartening. People admit they have no familiarity with the NHSL/P&W and never attended any of the meetings yet they "just know" it will bring all sorts of noise / crime / plagues of locusts right to their front doors. It makes you wonder how many other aspects of their lives are also ruled by misinformation and fear.

attending a p and w meeting isn't a prerequisite for being critical of the project. While there are some bad commenter it would be a lie to day everyone who is against the project is a bigot. Otoh there are plenty of legitimate reasons to be against this project but this group isn't really interested in those.

The price tag is what will sink this project. The simple fact that SEPTA is the lead agency in this study means KOP rail will not get built. In it's entire 50 year history SEPTA has never undertaken a major rail service extension or change. The few that have been completed (Airport Line, the tunnel, and BSL to Pattison) were all city sponsored initiatives. As dysfunctional as city government is, at one time they were actually able to get things accomplished.

The blatant discrimination evident from the NIMBYs is disgusting. Yet these opponents will heartily slap each other on the back when SEPTA announces the project's cancellation when in fact their role has little to do with it.

Suburban Station wrote:attending a p and w meeting isn't a prerequisite for being critical of the project.

True, but my point was simply that many of the objections have been addressed, multiple times. Had some of the opponents taken the time to attend they would have seen facts and figures. I'm not saying by any means that everyone would have been turned into a flagwaver but they could have pursued their concerns openly and in discussion. People can agree to disagree if they have facts on their sides. Instead many of the objectors are using assumptions and innuendo, which is not a way to achieve compromise.

While there are some bad commenters it would be a lie to say everyone who is against the project is a bigot.

Again, true. I did refer to "some" opponents. There are also people who are concerned about cost (as I am, too) and the fact that if it does ever run it'll be at best a decade away. What I'm raising is that so many opponents' views seem to be mired in the 1930s. Upper Merion isn't exactly a diverse community but there has been no racial tension here in over half a century. Seeing it rear its head now is disturbing. IMO it's reflective of the current political scene in general, where the fringes - on both sides - have given a veneer of legitimacy to extreme attitudes. It seemed that until a few years ago, most bigots had finally realized that even if their views hadn't changed, acting on them publicly was generally no longer acceptable. Now they're unashamed in advertising their prejudices.

Otoh there are plenty of legitimate reasons to be against this project but this group isn't really interested in those.

Again, agreed. Their only proposal is "do nothing", with no real alternatives to address the area's congestion.

Those planning on attending the next round of meetings next month can come prepared: SEPTA pre-announced that they're selecting the PECO+Turnpike alignment as the LPA:

http://mobile.philly.com/blogs/?wss=/ph ... =370272241&" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The proposed 17-foot-high rail spur would include five stops: one at Henderson Road, with vehicle parking; two at the King of Prussia Mall, including a stop that deposits passengers in the mall itself; and two more in the King of Prussia Business Park, an old commercial and industrial site poised for mixed-use redevelopment.

I'm curious to see what that reference to a stop "inside" the mall is talking about, since the proposed stops have so far been limited to the perimeter of the property.

I'm hoping to attend at least one of the meetings and will see what I can find out what "inside" means. Early plans included a stop that was physically connected to the shopping area so riders didn't have to go outside in bad weather; my understanding is that opportunity was lost because the extension's timeline precluded integrating it with construction of the Plaza/Court connector. Maybe some other option's been found - ?

Having followed the project pretty closely, my 10¢ is that the routing chosen is the best possible under the circumstances. There was some feeling that running down 202 would have better served businesses in that part of the township but it would also have generated a lot of opposition from nearby residents. At the other end, Gulph Road is pretty much a lost cause for the same reason as a stop in the connector: the line won't run till years after development there is complete. An arm along First Ave can tie in with that corridor's makeover during the next 5-10 years.

Comments on philly.com are as expected. "Just buy more buses.” "Extend the R6 instead." "Build express lanes on I76." At least there wasn't much in the way of overt racism compared to that #%?! petition.

Those are, of course, valid alternatives (especially extending the regional rail network which had been posting gains until last month). Keep in mind Tysons corner was also a very bitter debate, probably much moreso than this project, and required a significant contribution from local property owners. This project will not do much to relieve regional congestion

Despite offering a one-seat ride, a Regional Rail extension to the Mall didn't even make the first cut. The reasons given were cost and the ability of the NHSL to provide short headways. Likewise a recent engineering study concluded that widening I-76 by adding lanes or even upgrading existing shoulders would be prohibitively complex and costly.

Service frequency alone would probably have been enough to preclude an RRD spur, but after seeing the NHSL cost magically double I wonder just how uncompetitive the RRD's price tag would really be.

The philly.com article has pictures from a new presentation. Does anyone have a link to an updated package?

I know space there is tight but they're not even putting a small local stop at 202?

SCB2525 wrote:I know space there is tight but they're not even putting a small local stop at 202?

The station choices seem to be a bit thin to me as well. Only two stops are shown on First Avenue even though it's over a mile long and will be redeveloped for higher-density mixed use. It seems to me the extension may need a somewhat different operating model with closer spacing versus the quasi-interurban distances on most of the existing line.

I also haven't heard anything about how large the Henderson Road park-and-ride lot may be. Additional demand is clearly there b/c Gulph Mills and King Manor* are usually maxed out by 8:30-8:45.

(*) Yeah, I know SEPTA renamed it but having two DeKalb St. stations miles apart is pretty ridiculous...

http://www.kingofprussiarail.com/virtualmeeting6.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First meeting for the KOP Rail extension to present the Recommended Locally Planned Alternative is at the Radisson Hotel Valley Forge Hotel on First Ave right next to the VF Casino. If anybody goes out there tonight, please post your thoughts/comments/observations on the presentation and the mood/demeanor of those in attendance. I plan on going to the scheduled meeting at Norristown Municipal Hall on Wednesday, but any advance notice/spoilers is greatly appreciated.

This is the most recent thread I've seen on this; not sure if it's been discussed elsewhere. Anyway, here's some news: Progressive Railroading

SNIPS:

SEPTA slates meetings on Norristown line extension

Known as the King of Prussia Rail Project, the extension would provide a direct, one-seat ride from the Norristown Transportation Center to various destinations in the King of Prussia and Valley Forge area, SEPTA officials said in a press release.

At the meetings, representatives from SEPTA and the King of Prussia Rail Project consultant team will give an overview of recent activities, including the selection of the recommended locally preferred alternative, which was chosen from five possible routes.

The preferred route runs along a portion of the Pennsylvania Turnpike right-of-way and terminates at North Gulph Road adjacent to the Valley Forge Convention Center and Casino, SEPTA officials said.

See article for meetings details, which are imminent.

zebrasepta wrote:If you read the Article, it's talking about the NHSL and not the R6 Norristown line

It's beyond just one misunderstanding on this board. Last week Channel 10 mistakenly identified the NHSL as part of the RRD and has failed to change its posted story despite being informed about their error. Then the Inky made things worse by giving prominent space to a letter-writer beating the drum for a completely different route on the north side of K of P using existing freight tracks (?!)

There were at least half a dozen reasons* why an RRD extension didn't even make it out of the starting gate in Phase 1 of the planning process, but it seems a few people just can't let go of the idea.

(*) Construction costs, labor costs, operating costs, FRA regs, service frequency, aural and visual impact, etc. etc.