NHSL Extension Meetings / Workshops Announced

Even a dedicated, express version of the 99 or any other bus option from the NTC to the Mall would just be a stopgap. A bus is still subject to congested traffic, bad weather, and all the other negatives of sharing with cars and trucks. It also means riders using the MFSE and NHSL to get to the Mall will still face a three-seat ride whether they transfer at Gulph Mills or Norristown.

IMHO proposals for some kind of faster bus connections don't address the core problem: K of P is running out of places to put highway vehicles. BRT - where? Shoulder-running on I-76 - how? Upper Merion is only going to become more built up, and its density is already at the point where it can support rail as a viable alternative to additional rubber tires. I completely agree that the extension has all sorts of problems but they're almost all political and managerial rather than being inherent to rail itself. The chances that the extension can meet - and help to manage - future commuter needs are still far higher than what could be achieved by more bus traffic.

the main crux holding back this extension beside SEPTAs inability to expand anything rail is that the residents of Upper Merion do not see any direct benefit for THEM and as a faster conduit providing nonresidents easier access into their community.

would not be surprised if someone shows up to a public meeting with this article in hand

RM:

Yes-anything to get the NIMBY and BANANA opponents riled up against any NHSL extension to KOP.

Do you recall as I do - a burglary incident in which a man had stolen a number of items and then went to a NHSL
station and fell either in front of or under the arriving train and being killed? I remember it being either Gulph Mills
or Matsonford (Conshohocken Road) back sometime during the 1990s.

What SEPTA needs to do better is to convince many interested parties that a NHSL extension to "King of Pressure"
(my nickname for the KOP area that implies what you are under dealing with the area traffic) can be a alternative
to driving in that congested area - and with growth continuing vehicle use to this auto dependent area will only
increase in time...

MACTRAXX

Having attended at least one session of every public meeting since the project was announced, I saw very little overt opposition expressed at any of them. With only a couple of exceptions the attendees who had concerns were willing to listen and in most cases came away with a different perspective. In six sessions only one person was implacably opposed, and they admitted their only experience with public transit was seeing the Frankford El "tunnel". In fact the great majority of attendees - far more numerous that the number of NIMBYs who have surfaced - were supportive of the project, so I don't think it's fair to paint the opposition as community-wide.

That said, I agree that SEPTA and UM need to do a lot more to reach out to those opponents. If objections aren't addressed, and soon, their alternate-reality views will become almost impossible to dislodge no matter how misguided. At some distress to my digestion I slogged through many of the comments on the opponents' petition site; the major threads were:

1. no one told me about the extension
2. transit brings crime committed by "those people"
3. I don't use transit myself so why should we spend money for others
4. I'm not from the area (about ONE-THIRD of the addresses!) but I hate transit on principle

Despite the fact that the meetings WERE in fact well-publicized via emails, newspaper articles, and mailings the planners will have to make that extra-mile effort to engage the naysayers. Further outreach will help blunt the second and third concerns, the same way they were addressed at those earlier meetings. Not everyone will be convinced but at the meetings several people did reconsider their positions after direct communication. (d) is probably a lost cause </sigh>.

One thing I don't understand is why the Route 202 option isn't being put into perspective. By the second meeting nearly everyone - residents, planners, local government - agreed it was the least-preferable of the 3 alternatives. At later meetings various officials said it was effectively off the table. All I can think is that it may be being retained as a straw man that can be ceremoniously dropped later, giving opponents a "victory" at no cost to the more viable options.

Jeff - thanks for the insight. Never been to a meeting and only see the crying. Glad to hear that there is some acceptable level of reasoning at the meetings.

roadmaster wrote:Jeff - thanks for the insight. Never been to a meeting and only see the crying. Glad to hear that there is some acceptable level of reasoning at the meetings.

My pleasure. While my baser instincts are to simply not waste time on the opponents, I have to remember the old line about how close you should keep your enemies. I'd rather that the planners expend some effort now to counter concerns versus letting them fester only to pop out later as a lawsuit or protests. This year's politics have already shown how quickly exaggeration and misinformation can spread (and it's only February!!)

Unfortunately I have not been to any of the meetings either, but I'm getting pretty tired of the NIMBYs already. They are really try to spread propaganda with this Facebook group and petition that has been swirling around. I tried to explain to them on Facebook once that a YouTube video of the NHSL blowing its horn is not likely to happen at 2am like they claimed, but they just couldn't seem to realize that the horn is there for safety (i.e. when a Limited is blowing past a station at 70mph-god help trying to explain that to these thick skulled folks!).

They're also trying to find articles that say light rail is bad essentially, I think they posted some blog written by someone who didn't like the Light Rail system in Phoenix AZ and tried to say look how terrible this is, property values will go down, etc. I just don't buy that property values argument, just ask the folks on the Main Line who live near the R5 for example! Loads of real estate listings on the Main Line ALWAYS mention how close a property is to a given station.

Hopefully these folks don't (please pardon the pun) railroad this project completely, as some of the funds and political will seem to be in place. Now everyone just has to get moving on this!

I'd recommend that any and all of us who are in favor of the extension add their support for the KoP Rail Coalition http://connectkop.com/kop-rail-coalition/ to counter the NIMBYs and BANANAs. What boggles me about the naysayers is that the extension isn't some grand experiment with untried technology, the NHSL/P&W has run for a century with none of the nut-case consequences that are being forecast. My suspicion is that the opponents are so focused on their prejudices that any project, no matter how little its impact, would twist their knickers. Transporter beams, anyone?

Disclosure: The coalition supports the First Avenue routing beyond the Mall, but my 2¢ is the extension's slow timeline means that's now probably more viable versus Gulph Road.

Dumb question...
I know what NIMBYs are...but what are BANANAs, which are mentioned in this topic???

ST: BANANA means "Build Absolutely Nothing Anytime Near Anyone"...
NIMBY sounds exactly what it means as compared to BANANA.

JK:

Good link to the KOP extension supporters page. Do you also have the link to the UM NIMBY Facebook page also?
I would like to read the propaganda that these opponents cite in opposition to the KOP Project. Has anyone posted
anything there in support of the KOP Project as counterpoints? Bringing a rail alternative to "King of Pressure" can
benefit far more people then these opponents can realize and to me any improvement that can lessen the traffic
troubles in that area is something that should be welcomed and not opposed for petty reasons.

MACTRAXX

MT: I found this link https://www.facebook.com/nokoprail/ in one of the news stories linked by DVARP.

In all honesty before I post anything there I want to make sure my main FB identity is shielded. Given some of the angry / racist / anti-everything comments I've seen elsewhere, I don't want them getting at my primary page.

JeffK wrote:MT: I found this link https://www.facebook.com/nokoprail/ in one of the news stories linked by DVARP.

In all honesty before I post anything there I want to make sure my main FB identity is shielded. Given some of the angry / racist / anti-everything comments I've seen elsewhere, I don't want them getting at my primary page.

JK:

Thanks for adding this FB link - it will surely be an interesting read (to say the least...) or at least I thought.
I noticed that there is a "member wall" to look at anything after the introductory page. Not worth joining FB
for that after what you already noted. I have a pretty good idea what is probably in there anyway.

I do not blame you for keeping your personal information private - it is one of the prime reasons that I have
never joined Facebook nor am I a fan of social media for the most part. Posting sites are enough for me...

In a personal note eleven years ago today - during the 11 am hour - I joined Railroad.Net with my goal being
to contribute to these forums in a positive and constructive manner and for the most part my experiences here
have been a good one and without the contibutions of our members Railroad.Net would not be where it is today...

MACTRAXX

Before clicking on the facebook link, I wondered how quick I would see a reference to O'Toole - did not take long. This group sees him as moses presenting the true word on stone tablets. randal is the king of political writing - spin it and add a little bs to make your case appear as the iron clad truth

I'm thinking it may be much more effective to send well-reasoned emails to the parties who are being targeted by the NIMBYs. Among the UM supervisors, Greg Waks and Erika Spott are decent folks who'll listen to intelligent comments, and in addition have good BS detectors. Sen. Leach is also a good man with a progressive bent.

Yeah, part of me would love to get on their FB page and counterpoint all the misinformation but it would almost certainly be just throwing firecrackers into their cave. ... Jeez, I must be maturing or something. In college I loved nothing more than (to echo Vonnegut) "peeling the skin off granfalloons".

JeffK wrote:I'm thinking it may be much more effective to send well-reasoned emails to the parties who are being targeted by the NIMBYs. Among the UM supervisors, Greg Waks and Erika Spott are decent folks who'll listen to intelligent comments, and in addition have good BS detectors. Sen. Leach is also a good man with a progressive bent.

Yeah, part of me would love to get on their FB page and counterpoint all the misinformation but it would almost certainly be just throwing firecrackers into their cave. ... Jeez, I must be maturing or something. In college I loved nothing more than (to echo Vonnegut) "peeling the skin off granfalloons".

Agree, you are 100% correct. Are you familiar with the writings of randal o'tool? He can be very slick with the way he presents his "research" and "analysis". His style actually mimics that of conspiracy theorists and can be picked apart pretty easily. for a recent piece, he will reference his own work which will reference an older work which will reference an actaul fact; although, the actual fact will be a unique stat that applied to a very unique situation. By the time he is on his third writing, that liitle inconsequential fact now becomes gosple for everything and anything. Quite the illusionist. Also, when someone writes an op-ed article and starts with "i really love this topic but here is why this topic is stupid" it is a preamble to bs.