History of the Broad Street Line

scotty269 wrote:

NortheastTrainMan wrote:Since no one knows why the 3rd rail is where it is I'll just move on to my next set of questions.

What is that circle/ring object on the B-IVs? they were also on the older BSL cars

Kawasaki B-IV

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?79611

Pre B-IV era cars

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?17087

What was this car doing on the BSL? Who made it and what was it for?

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7202

http://world.nycsubway.org/perl/show?7201

Also during the unfortunate Susquehanna-Dauphin incident how were trains ran? Were some turned or terminated?

Since the BSL did occasionally at one point in time use Bridge Cars (PATCO) were there any revenue runs on the BSL to NJ? Also if there were are there plans to restore it?

http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/soac.html - SOAC car

What "unfortunate Susquehanna-Dauphin incident"?

This is what I was referring to.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/from ... _Line.html

To my mind, one of the most significant aspects of BSL history is that which has not occured, i.e. extensions via branches.

Goerge Metz produced several brochures associated with railfan trips using old BSL cars (1988, 1991) that document the potential extensions that have been proposed over time. Many of these proposals have been discussed in other threads.

It would be so much easier to get around the city if these extensions had been built. The fact that they were not built is due to a series of uniquely Philadelphian circumstances, the existence of which lead one to the conclusion that the city political and business leadership class was incapable of of putting of the common good above their own interests. Sound familiar?

Philadelphia - Corrupt and Contented

Bill R. wrote: Philadelphia - Corrupt and Contented

Agreed.

gardendance wrote:I had read somewhere that when the Ben Franklin Bridge line ran only Philly to Camden, pre 1968, it was not unusual to have trains from the Ridge Ave spur change ends at 8th and Market or 16th and Locust and operate over the Bridge. I doubt any passengers availed themselves of the 1 seat ride, but I also don't think the operators emptied the trains when they changed ends.
I don't know of any serious plans to restore this service.

Restoration is impossible today because of two reasons:

1]The signalling systems are totally incompatible. SEPTA uses the old block system, while PATCO uses computer-controlled wayside signalling. It's this incompatability that the City squeezed in the single-tracked terminal station that sits on top of the PATCO 8th and Market station [which is the original station opened in 1932].

2]The track connection at the 8th and Race Junction has been severed. The "Eastbound" NJ track used to be connected to the "Northbound" Ridge track just south of the Chinatown [Vine] Station [the remnant can be seen from either Ridge spur train or a PATCO train going Eastbound]. The last train over the connection was the SOAC train. Later, a fence was erected over the tracks. Then sometime in the late 80's or early 90's PATCO removed the switch and the connection was severed for good.

KAWASAKI-FAN100 wrote:

Bill R. wrote: Philadelphia - Corrupt and Contented

Agreed.

You can add racist to that quote.

One of the reasons the NE extension of the subway was never built was that the White ethnics that originally settled in the Northeast feared the influx of Blacks from North Philly and elsewhere, and that the subway was a quick way to bring these undesirable people up to their neighborhoods. In addition, a freeway was going to be built that would carry the subway and the NIMBYisms was out in force. The election of Frank Rizzo in the 70's killed the freeway, and his decision to build the Commuter Tunnel [backed by the city's Big Business] instead of the Subway killed the BSS NE extension for the time being.

Now most of those old White Ethnics didn't count on a couple of things:

1] Their children would grow up and either leave the city for the suburbs or out of the Metropolitan area for job opportunities.

2]Starting in the late 80's to mid 90's, they would start to die off, or become totally unable to take care of their properties due to old age.

When #2 occurred with extreme frequency in the 80's and 90's, the kids got the houses and sold it to the first buyer available, and guess who they were? The Blacks [as well as Latinos and Asians] bought these houses to get a better life away from the 'hoods. This was the reason the ethnic/racial makeup of the Northeast changed over the last 15 to 20 years.
Neighborhoods like Rawhnhurst, Lawndale, Oxford Circle, and Wissinoming did not have any minority residents as late as 1985, whereas they have at least a percentage ranging from 30 to 50% of the residents living there today.

The demographic changes in NE Philly has made the idea of the BSS exension get a much friendlier reception than back in the day, but the cost of such an endeavor has shot up from $300 million back in 1979, to $3 Billion today.

Racism aside, it seems that in only the past year or two, the general public (read:suburbanites) attitude has warmed ever so slightly to mass transportation as long as it isn't busses. I'm not saying that the suburbs, or the Northeast for that matter are bastions of tree hugging rail fans now, but they no longer completely shut the idea down. There has been talk for a couple of years of 'fixing' Roosevelt boulevard. If the Northeast is going to be bracing for a huge construction project for their roadway, sneaking a subway underneath couldn't be THAT hard.

I still say the Blvd. line should have been on the top of the list for the Obama stimulus..... it is shovel ready (studied a million times)..... but nothing came of it.

Trackseventeen wrote:I still say the Blvd. line should have been on the top of the list for the Obama stimulus..... it is shovel ready (studied a million times)..... but nothing came of it.

It's been studied a million times but, but are there detailed design plans sitting around suitable for constructions? Typically the studies only determine the estimated cost and feasibility of a project but don't actually design more than a proposed alignment.

PARailWiz wrote:

Trackseventeen wrote:I still say the Blvd. line should have been on the top of the list for the Obama stimulus..... it is shovel ready (studied a million times)..... but nothing came of it.

It's been studied a million times but, but are there detailed design plans sitting around suitable for constructions? Typically the studies only determine the estimated cost and feasibility of a project but don't actually design more than a proposed alignment.

Correct. That's definitely less shovel-ready than Reading, Newtown, or even NJ-3 to Gloucester County

MelroseMatt wrote:

NortheastTrainMan wrote:Thank you. It answers one question but not the other question (3rd Rail Placement).

Broad Street Line (Philadelphia,PA)
notice how the 3rd Rail is underneath the platform. Rather than across from it

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... Locust.jpg

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... ocust2.jpg

NYC Subway (New York,New York)
notice how the 3rd rail is across from the platform rather than under it.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... rdRail.jpg

The Broad Street Line pictures were taken by Bob Vogel (chuchubob) . The NYC Subway picture was taken by Roberto C. Tobar.

If you want my guess, it was because the engineers saw what was done in NYC, and then did the opposite. Engineers are not above petty things like this.


-Matt P.E.

Petty? Isn't it safer to have the 3rd rail across from the platform? So if someone fell from the platform they could climb up or go under the platform without worrying about touching the 3rd rail. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I would assume that BSS trains may have ran similar to the Susquehanna–Dauphin schedule after this occured

http://septawatch.com/blog/2009/7/20/wo ... -rail.html

NortheastTrainMan wrote:

MelroseMatt wrote:

NortheastTrainMan wrote:Thank you. It answers one question but not the other question (3rd Rail Placement).

Broad Street Line (Philadelphia,PA)
notice how the 3rd Rail is underneath the platform. Rather than across from it

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... Locust.jpg

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... ocust2.jpg

NYC Subway (New York,New York)
notice how the 3rd rail is across from the platform rather than under it.

http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt70 ... rdRail.jpg

The Broad Street Line pictures were taken by Bob Vogel (chuchubob) . The NYC Subway picture was taken by Roberto C. Tobar.

If you want my guess, it was because the engineers saw what was done in NYC, and then did the opposite. Engineers are not above petty things like this.


-Matt P.E.

Petty? Isn't it safer to have the 3rd rail across from the platform? So if someone fell from the platform they could climb up or go under the platform without worrying about touching the 3rd rail. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I would assume that BSS trains may have ran similar to the Susquehanna–Dauphin schedule after this occured

http://septawatch.com/blog/2009/7/20/wo ... -rail.html

I completely agree that it would be safer to locate the 3rd rail opposite the platform. Perhaps the designers simply assumed if you fell, you were dead and it made no difference. They may have considered the space at the center of the tracks, between the columns, to be the refuge area.

Again, I have no sources to cite on this topic, I'm just speculating as an engineer who's worked on big projects.

I'll throw out another idea, which is probably the most plausible - cost may have been what determined 3rd rail placement. If, for example, locating the 3rd rails opposite the platforms would have forced the tracks to be farther apart, and therefore the tunnel to be wider overall, this cost may have justified placing the 3rd rail under the platforms.

is it simply a matter of insulation? Easier to insulate the 3rd rail when it runs next to the concrete tunnel wall, instead of the steel columns?

Was the EL constructed with 3rd rail power from day one? Was it steam power when it was completely elevated and outdoors? Did it ever use overhead wires and trolley poles, and thus lacked space for a 3rd rail? Did it ever use an odd 3rd rail or 4th rail arrangement like the London underground?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EalingCommon3.jpg



In all reality, the answer to why Philly put the 3rd rail under the platforms may have been lost with the generation that built them.

Matthew Mitchell wrote:

PARailWiz wrote:

Trackseventeen wrote:I still say the Blvd. line should have been on the top of the list for the Obama stimulus..... it is shovel ready (studied a million times)..... but nothing came of it.

It's been studied a million times but, but are there detailed design plans sitting around suitable for constructions? Typically the studies only determine the estimated cost and feasibility of a project but don't actually design more than a proposed alignment.

Correct. That's definitely less shovel-ready than Reading, Newtown, or even NJ-3 to Gloucester County

Well...... maybe less shovel ready..... but definetly more needed.

PARailWiz wrote:

Trackseventeen wrote:I still say the Blvd. line should have been on the top of the list for the Obama stimulus..... it is shovel ready (studied a million times)..... but nothing came of it.

It's been studied a million times but, but are there detailed design plans sitting around suitable for constructions? Typically the studies only determine the estimated cost and feasibility of a project but don't actually design more than a proposed alignment.

Well..... in phillyroads.com there are some pretty detailed plans there..... Shows middle lane expressway, with outboard local lanes with BSS subway.....

MelroseMatt wrote:Was the EL constructed with 3rd rail power from day one?

Yes

Was it steam powered when it was completely elevated and outdoors?

No. Perhaps you're thinking of very early operations on what became the P&W, which briefly used steam before the 3rd rail was installed.

Did it ever use overhead wires and trolley poles, and thus lacked space for a 3rd rail?

Again, nope. In fact, Merritt Taylor had his trolleys designed so they could have had shoes added for shared running. (Side observation - maybe it's my American upbringing and rail-fannery but I admit when I visited Madrid a catenary-powered subway appeared strange. [It was true subway, not an S-bahn type operation])

Did it ever use an odd 3rd rail or 4th rail arrangement like the London underground?

Again, nope.

Trackseventeen wrote:

PARailWiz wrote:

Trackseventeen wrote:I still say the Blvd. line should have been on the top of the list for the Obama stimulus..... it is shovel ready (studied a million times)..... but nothing came of it.

It's been studied a million times but, but are there detailed design plans sitting around suitable for constructions? Typically the studies only determine the estimated cost and feasibility of a project but don't actually design more than a proposed alignment.

Well..... in phillyroads.com there are some pretty detailed plans there..... Shows middle lane expressway, with outboard local lanes with BSS subway.....

Can you link them? I'd like to see them.

By detailed construction plans, I mean plans detailed enough that they specify things like the exact dimensions of proposed stations and exactly where they will be, electrical plans, plumbing plans, utility relocation plans, geotechnical reports all along the route, plans for relocating or shoring up adjacent foundations that might be impacted, etc, etc, etc... For a project the size of the Boulevard Subway the amount of preliminary work to design it to the point where construction crews could conceivably begin work is immense even after an alignment is chosen.