Hiawatha Service: Ending Monthly Passes

ryanwc wrote:Lake Barrington sends their kids to palaces 180 days a year, commensurate with their home lifestyles.

Yeah, not really, the D220 schools are rather average. They don't even have a real performing arts center like Lake Zurich or other districts.

The large differences you report in taxes for 3 similar sized properties in the same school district pretty much have to be because the properties have different values, since the county tax rate couldn't possibly have that big an effect.

Nope, all three of those properties were essentially the same value: 1300SF single story homes on an acre without a homeowners association. The only difference were the county, township and fire districts.

Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

I think the reason the property tax discussion is relevant is because that's what's driving the super-commuting, and that's who uses the monthly passes on the Hiawatha Service.

The taxes closer in along the Metra lines are ridiculous enough that people will live 50-90 miles away and put up with a 2-hour commute.



Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

eolesen wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 11:21 am I think the reason the property tax discussion is relevant is because that's what's driving the super-commuting, and that's who uses the monthly passes on the Hiawatha Service.

The taxes closer in along the Metra lines are ridiculous enough that people will live 50-90 miles away and put up with a 2-hour commute.



Sent from my SM-S911U using Tapatalk

A small handful will.

>the D220 schools are rather average. They don't even have a real performing arts center like Lake Zurich

LOL. Now ask how many of those NW Indiana schools have them.

Regardless of what you may find value in, the economics definition of value is price -- at the crossing of supply and demand curves. A $10,000 / 160% difference in property tax is not caused by the minuscule amount going to the county or fire prevention district. That's not mathematically possible, where county taxes are less than half of school district taxes.

I just pulled a Cook bill from Inverness -- I was trying for a multi-million dollar home, but as it happens, Redfin showed me a pic and specs of the future housee, so what I got was the tax bill for when it was subdivided from whatever horse farm estate it had been, but the ratios would be the same.

D220 taxes were $2,500, or roughly 2/3rds of the $3,800 bill.

As I said,it's not mathematically possible for a property in Cook to have more than double the tax bill of a property in McHenry, if they both have the same price, when the shared school district is the overwhelming portion of the bill.

It's caused by the difference in price. Your Cook and Lake Co. neighbors don't think your house is worth what theirs is, for whatever reason. You may think them wrong, and that's phenomenal. But the market is what's important here, and the market tells a different story.

ryanwc wrote: ↑Fri Dec 22, 2023 10:00 am Is there something about allocation of costs and income that would make the passes problematic for WI even though they are net positive for Amtrak?

It means more costs for WIDOT. With PRIIA 209 service Amtrak will do whatever the state wants and would charge $1 fares if WIDOT asked - but WIDOT would have to pony up the costs of doing so. The New Haven - Hartford - Springfield line up my way is a similar length service - about 20 miles less in distance but comparable. CTDOT offers a CTrail monthly pass for the line that costs less than $300 for the entire line, and they take a number of the state’s student passes and the entire line regular fare is less than $14. This applies to both the CTrail and Amtrak operated trains and the Amtrak trains also accept the CTrail ticket media - and Amtrak charges the same fares if you buy through them. These lower fares and Amtrak taking all these passes, of course, is paid for by a higher state payment to Amtrak by CTDOT. WIDOT was likely unwilling to pay Amtrak for what it would have taken to continue with the previous pass rate.

Or does Wisconsin Department of Transportation leave it up to Amtrak what to charge for various tickets to make up the difference between what Wisconsin pays and what Amtrak claims the train service costs?

JimBoylan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:54 pm Or does Wisconsin Department of Transportation leave it up to Amtrak what to charge for various tickets to make up the difference between what Wisconsin pays and what Amtrak claims the train service costs?

Is this a case of the more revenue / cost ratio the less Wisconsin has to pay?

JimBoylan wrote: ↑Sat Dec 23, 2023 5:54 pm Or does Wisconsin Department of Transportation leave it up to Amtrak what to charge for various tickets to make up the difference between what Wisconsin pays and what Amtrak claims the train service costs?

Here is how it basically works. Amtrak sells the tickets and pays for everything. If that train service loses money according to Amtrak's accounting, the States pay for the losses (or subsidizes that train service).

Here's a few examples.
A) Amtrak sells $20 Million in fares, and spends $19 Million to provide that service, the States subsidizes $0.
B) Amtrak sells $20 Million in fares, and spends $21 Million to provide that service, the States subsidizes $1 Million.
C) Amtrak sells $20 Million in fares, and spends $10 Million to provide that service, the States subsidizes $0.
D) Amtrak sells $20 Million in fares, and spends $30 Million to provide that service, the States subsidizes $10 Million.

How ticket sales and train expenses are accounted for is all in Amtrak's record keeping and in individual state contracts.

If the States do not wish to subsidize cafe/dinner/food losses, the cafe car is eliminated from the train.

They're baaaaaaaaaack...

https://www.cbs58.com/news/amtrak-reins ... to-chicago

MILWAUKEE (CBS 58) -- A month after removing its monthly pass for its Hiawatha line, Amtrak reinstated the option.

On Nov. 1, 2023, WisDOT and Amtrak announced a new fare schedule for the Amtrak Hiawatha Service, which runs from Milwaukee to Chicago. The changes included new sliding fares and eliminating its $400 monthly pass that gave passengers unlimited rides.

Amtrak said the revision in fares was due to post-COVID changes in travel patterns, telling CBS 58 that the $210 10-ride pass was now a more attractive travel option for passengers. For people who use the Hiawatha line twice a day, five days a week, the 10-ride pass would cost $840, over double the previous $400 monthly option.

On Monday, Dec. 18, Amtrak announced it reinstated the monthly Hiawatha pass for $650, a $250 increase over the previous version. Last week, CBS 58 reported on the changes, with some passengers against the price increase.

STrRedWolf wrote: ↑Thu Dec 28, 2023 6:45 pm They're baaaaaaaaaack...
https://www.cbs58.com/news/amtrak-reins ... to-chicago
MILWAUKEE (CBS 58)
On Monday, Dec. 18, Amtrak announced it reinstated the monthly Hiawatha pass for $650, a $250 increase over the previous version. Last week, CBS 58 reported on the changes, with some passengers against the price increase.

Call the WHAAAAAAAAAAA-mbulance.

The bigger picture begs examining here:

1. Why is Amtrak involved in this train?
2. Why are we using cars from the corridor fleet?
3. Does anybody in Washington understand what this train really does?

I was a frequent passenger when I lived in Chicago and while there are some convenient aspects of this train, it suffers from the typical "if it's west of Harpers Ferry it might as well be at the bottom of the ocean" mentality at Amtrak. This train is a 90 minute commuter train and its a safe bet that many of the riders are getting off before downtown Milwaukee. It's equipped with Horizon cars with 2+2 seats and generous leg room more suitable for a ride to Detroit or Minneapolis. They open 2-3 doors at every station rather than all doors, even MKA airport where you can have 50-100 people with luggage boarding.

Further, if the passenger loads are good enough to scale back the discounts that the passes represent, aren't we achieving the mission of the train to provide good public transportation? My God this is a shining victory and instead of increasing capacity, we discourage riders!

This is another operation that desperately needs gallery cars and high density seating with automatic doors. It is maddening to sit at CUS, MKE, or MKA airport and watch 100-200 people struggle up the steps with their luggage because they utterly refuse to open all the doors. The same frustration sets in when they do the highly officious kindergartner march at downtown Chicago or Milwaukee to the train.

The Hiawatha services are managed by Wisconsin DOT, not Illinois DOT. Unless Superliner incompatible platforms are built, or the trains are staffed with a crew member per car, Amtrak can't open all doors (from my observations, there has to be one or two Amtrak staff to assist passengers at low level platforms climbing the stairs because personal injury lawsuits are a thing). The trains are now equipped with Venture cars (so there can be pure Siemens trainsets on this service), but under this contract, were originally to be equipped with Nippon Sharyo bi-levels, which would have enabled all door boarding at Superliner compatible platforms. As far as I can tell, the Hiawatha trains were never treated as commuter trains by Amtrak or its predecessors. Wisconsin did contract for Talgo trainsets for this service, but we know how that went.

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:48 am Unless Superliner incompatible platforms are built, or the trains are staffed with a crew member per car, Amtrak can't open all doors (from my observations, there has to be one or two Amtrak staff to assist passengers at low level platforms climbing the stairs because personal injury lawsuits are a thing).

I don't know exactly what you mean, so maybe there's something I'm missing. But Metra opens more doors than the number of conductors. Cameras at alternate doors would seem to be a solution to spurious lawsuits. Or is there something about the design of these cars that makes injury more likely than on a Metra car?

As far as I can tell, the Hiawatha trains were never treated as commuter trains by Amtrak or its predecessors.

This is the problem. Whether or not Amtrak treats it as a commuter train, it is. 90 minutes, 60 miles, regular ridership, monthly passes. These are all low platform stations, some shared with Metra. Gallery cars would work great, as would any high density commuter car.

As for what predecessors did, MILW ran 5x/day MSP-Chicago plus a handful of locals. But that was pre-1970, which was more like a 1921 business model required by the ICC and a lot has changed since either 1921 or 71. A lot has changed since 2001! Its' good to look at What MILW did right - implementing gallery cars and dedicated HEP units (MILW's last handful of E9's, the last built, were the first dedicated HEP units by EMD!). But back then Sturtevant and Kenosha were sleepy auto parts towns and CNS&M carried quite a few passengers to Milwaukee as well!

Also a funny side note: for a few years in the 1980s, Amtrak decided to give each MKE train an indepenedent name - Nicollet, Badger, Radisson, etc...

ryanwc wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:57 am

RandallW wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 9:48 am Unless Superliner incompatible platforms are built, or the trains are staffed with a crew member per car, Amtrak can't open all doors (from my observations, there has to be one or two Amtrak staff to assist passengers at low level platforms climbing the stairs because personal injury lawsuits are a thing).

I don't know exactly what you mean, so maybe there's something I'm missing. But Metra opens more doors than the number of conductors. Cameras at alternate doors would seem to be a solution to spurious lawsuits. Or is there something about the design of these cars that makes injury more likely than on a Metra car?

What I mean is that, as far as I can tell, on non-LD services, Amtrak opens all doors at most stations if there is level boarding (i.e., in the NEC and California Car territories), but not if there isn't level boarding. My guess is that Amtrak is ensuring that they are not exposed to personal injury lawsuits by ensuring that train staff offers to handle baggage that is, for whatever reason, not checked and to otherwise assist passengers using the stairs on single level equipment.

I can find lawsuits against Metra for failing to assist passengers boarding trains, but can't tell if or that Metra just accepts that possibility in a way Amtrak doesn't, or assumes that passengers are much more likely to be regular or frequent passengers than Amtrak does.

Tadman wrote: ↑Fri Dec 29, 2023 10:17 am

As far as I can tell, the Hiawatha trains were never treated as commuter trains by Amtrak or its predecessors.

This is the problem. Whether or not Amtrak treats it as a commuter train, it is. 90 minutes, 60 miles, regular ridership, monthly passes.

I think you've got some things right about this. However:
a) it's actually 92 (driving) miles; I don't know the train miles, but 60 is not in the ballpark;
b) Sturtevant had only 36,000 of the 500,000+ ridership, so end-to-end or airport travel is clearly the predominant source of riders.
c) The description of large numbers boarding at Mitchell with luggage also undercuts the idea that commuters are the key.
d) It looks like Amtrak is hoping to implement a different model where many of the Milwaukee Hiawathas will continue further into Wisconsin. In the next several months, one will go to the Twin Cities. Another extension to the Twin Cities is likely within the next 2 years (the general outline of the plan already agreed on by the host railroad). The plans for Madison and Green Bay, which admittedly may never move beyond consultant-phase, would also be Hiawatha extensions.

e) The fact that we were all aghast at the $800 monthly pass, $9,600/year, is a sign that it is not intended merely as a way to get more revenue from the commuters - we all recognized that commuters weren't likely to endure that change. Amtrak and WisDoT know better than we do the profile of their customers. The most parsimonious explanation is that they do actually hope to free up seats for non-commuters on the busiest trains.