GE Transportation pressing for Amtrak deal

GoErie.com reports that GE and union officials are lobbying Washington for money to replace Amtrak locomotives. Could this be related to the "“dramatic and bold” equipment announcement expected in January?

Amtrak hopes to replace 54 of its oldest passenger locomotives, and Lawrence Park-based GE Transportation wants to bid for the contract.

But at least for now, there's no money in the government's 2010 budget to pay for them.

In what might have once seemed like an unusual collaboration, company officials and its main union are making a joint plea for Congress to include an appropriation for new locomotives.

http://www.goerie.com/apps/pbcs.dll/art ... /312019976

Is Amtrak looking to GE to replace the AEM-7's or are they honestly thinking of replacing the 10 year old P42s???

In terms of electrics I think GE permanently disqualified itself from any future electric locomotive orders with the E60 fiasco. For diesels the early replacement of still good stock would be nothing more than a government handout to GE with little return on the investment for the taxpayer.

Well Amtrak DID have 54 AEM7s to start, but thats just a raw count by GE. So yes I think this is for eletric locomotives.

Jersey_Mike wrote:Is Amtrak looking to GE to replace the AEM-7's or are they honestly thinking of replacing the 10 year old P42s???

In terms of electrics I think GE permanently disqualified itself from any future electric locomotive orders with the E60 fiasco. For diesels the early replacement of still good stock would be nothing more than a government handout to GE with little return on the investment for the taxpayer.

I've heard that the P42's aren't good at all. they have a high failure rate and are poor fits for passenger railroading, bought with the intent they'd be hauling (express) freight across the country. handout or not, with GE contemplating layoffs in erie, this was the purpose of the stimulus, like it or not.
edited to add: perhaps they are replacing the P40's?

Let's hope not. As someone who spends about 40 a week on the P42's I can only hope that EMD or another maker is chosen. Alot can be said for the locomotive maker (and NOT the Amtrak mechanical dept.) when the body of the locomotive shows rust, the front windows leak when simply washing them, the frame of the body leaks hot/cold air into the cab of the locomotive and the rough ride causing most engineers to seek out physical therapy upon arrival back home from being thrown around the motor. And let's not even get into the software (IFC & CAB) and the dynamics of the engine and what one must do to operate the train on schedule given the lag between the throttle and traction motor response time.

oh god, no.

GE has NO ability to make a modern electric, period. They are simply flat out incapable of doing it. They've never built one, and the taxpayers of the US shouldn't be a guinea pig for their experiments in making one.

Let them build a prototype on their dollar, show everyone it can meet the specs and work, and then they can bid or make a deal with Amtrak.

Amtrak should be a transportation system, not a workfare program.

oh god, no.

GE has NO ability to make a modern electric, period. They are simply flat out incapable of doing it. They've never built one, and the taxpayers of the US shouldn't be a guinea pig for their experiments in making one.

Being logical here General Electric is General ELECTRIC. They make some of the world's most popular diesel locomotives. They make some of the world's most popular electrical components. It only goes to reason that they should be able to make a good electric locomotive. The E60's weren't all that bad and some are still going strong out in Arizona.

Let them build a prototype on their dollar, show everyone it can meet the specs and work, and then they can bid or make a deal with Amtrak.

Amtrak should be a transportation system, not a workfare program.

You will never see a domestic supply of passenger electric locomotives (or passenger rail rolling stock) without some government involvement. What do you think the European governments have done except to bankroll new locomotive designs then dump them into our markets. I'd rather have an E80 pulling trains on the corridor than another DB 101 clone.

Jersey_Mike wrote: Being logical here General Electric is General ELECTRIC.

So what? GM is General Motors - they're not very good at making cars.

They make some of the world's most popular electrical components.

The days of GE dominating the electric field are long long long gone, Mike. I deal with industrial equipment all the time, and at least out in the tri state area, new GE equipment is basically unseen, except for their programmable logic controllers, which sell because they're cheap (Allen-Bradley's pricing is starting to get really nice, and Modicon's starting to catch up, too.). Their drive technology is 2nd tier rebadges from other companies (was Fuji, now I think Danfoss, neither can touch a Telemechanique or ABB). Their electrical gear? Junk. The few cabinets we've ordered from them have come wired totally wrong - despite being '100% tested" at the factory.

Don't get me started on what they try to pass off as tech support...

GE's a finance firm that makes jet engines and owns a TV network. Their days as an actual industrial firm are past them.

It only goes to reason that they should be able to make a good electric locomotive.

Why? Their diesels aren't so hot, and they've never fielded a 6,000 Kw AC traction locomotive. I doubt they even have the ability to build inverters that large - they stopped developing their own AC drives for industry at least 15 years ago. I'm not aware of any megawatt size inverters from them (ever), and a 4 axle 6,000Kw unit suggests at least 1.5 MW per inverter. IIRC, the inverters I their diesels are maybe 1/2 that. I think they might actually be IGBT now, though they were GTO for a long time.

I won't even get into the converter side, which GE has zero experience at. Nobody just feeds a bridge rectifier to get DC for the DC link anymore - all modern electric locos use active switching in the AC-DC converter to handle regen and keep the power factor manageable (or in the case of the '46, almost unity all the the time).

You will never see a domestic supply of passenger electric locomotives (or passenger rail rolling stock) without some government involvement.[./quote]

Well, then that's yet another industry we've given up. Too bad, so sad. It's not Amtrak's job or problem, though. Amtrak's job is to move people quickly, safely, efficiently, reliably, at low cost to the tax payer. They're not venture capital firm.

What do you think the European governments have done except to bankroll new locomotive designs then dump them into our markets. I'd rather have an E80 pulling trains on the corridor than another DB 101 clone.

I'd rather see a locomotive built by a builder that actually knows what they're doing. GE hasn't built an electric in years, they haven't built a locomotive on the level of an ALP-46, ever, and they've never built a functional 125mph electric. As much as folks like to think, an electric's not a diesel with a pantograph and transformer - it's an entirely different beast.

GE's a multi billion dollar firm. If they want to show some initiative beyond a press release, they can go develop something on their dime that shows they've got the ability - nobody's stopping them. But again, it's not Amtrak's job to bankroll GE's R&D experiments. Amtrak needs realiable, working locomotives that meet their needs, not under performing shop queens like GE handed them the last time they ordered an electric from them.

What's wrong with a DB 101 clone? By all accounts, the ALP-46 has been an excellent locomotive. When Amtrak puts porkbarrel politics ahead of technical merit, what you end up with is Super Steel Turboliners rusting away in some rail yard. If the ALP-46A performs well for NJT, I think Amtrak would be wise to purchase it as well.

perhaps they could do a joint technology project with a european or asian firm .

Disclaimer : i'm mortgaged to the hilt with GE money .

Why do you suppose GE signed that MoU with the Chinese Railways for manufacturing engines (high speed ones) in the US? Do you really think GE will use any of their own clunky technology for these? Most likely they will use re-imported Chinese sourced cloned European technology. The question is how badly they will manage to botch it up in the process of re-importing said stuff from China.

GE's last successful electric locomotive was the GG1, which had a remarkable and illustrious career: 46 years in Corridor service (1935-81). The E44 saw some use as a freight unit, but the E60 failed in its role to replace the GG1. But electric box motors and cabs were a GE speciality in the early 20th century.

What's wrong with a DB 101 clone? By all accounts, the ALP-46 has been an excellent locomotive. When Amtrak puts porkbarrel politics ahead of technical merit, what you end up with is Super Steel Turboliners rusting away in some rail yard. If the ALP-46A performs well for NJT, I think Amtrak would be wise to purchase it as well.

If you want the dollars in your wallet to continue to have any value you would be wise to stop supporting the trade deficit. Our country needs to start innovating in things besides sub-prime loans. Notice how Budd decided to exit the rolling stock business after it was bought by Thyssen AG and suddenly we're buying most of our rolling stock from the EU. Until we get a local firm willing to build a good electric locomotive, I think the best answer is to keep using the existing stock that had significant engineering input from the folks at EMD, Budd and Wilmington shoppes.

GE's last successful electric locomotive was the GG1, which had a remarkable and illustrious career: 46 years in Corridor service (1935-81).

GG-1's were a Baldwin/Altoona design that used either GE or Westinghouse gear.

Folks, Nasadowsk knows what he speaks of. I've found over the years he has a wealth of technical knowledge when it comes to electrical matters. I would assume if GE makes an electric motor today, the model wouldn't be a Erie-developed motor, it would be a motor developed and proven by another group that GE buys or licenses technology from as an investment.

Jersey_Mike wrote:

What's wrong with a DB 101 clone? By all accounts, the ALP-46 has been an excellent locomotive. When Amtrak puts porkbarrel politics ahead of technical merit, what you end up with is Super Steel Turboliners rusting away in some rail yard. If the ALP-46A performs well for NJT, I think Amtrak would be wise to purchase it as well.

If you want the dollars in your wallet to continue to have any value you would be wise to stop supporting the trade deficit. Our country needs to start innovating in things besides sub-prime loans. Notice how Budd decided to exit the rolling stock business after it was bought by Thyssen AG and suddenly we're buying most of our rolling stock from the EU. Until we get a local firm willing to build a good electric locomotive, I think the best answer is to keep using the existing stock that had significant engineering input from the folks at EMD, Budd and Wilmington shoppes.

For all we know GE will import a significant part of these alleged high speed locomotives from China and mostly do final assembly here like everyone else does. What makes you think GE will do core manufacturing here. If that was their intent why would they need an MoU with the Chinese? This could just be a clever way of importing European technology indirectly after it has been further developed/modified in China. Let's wait and see what is the real shape of this thing before arriving at any conclusions either way.