Freight through Penn...

I understand that during WWII there was at least some coal freight through NYP. Is this accurate?

With renewed talk of a cross-harbor tunnel for NYC, has Amtrak and any freight railroads ever given any thought to possibly using single-level container cars to move containers from NY to LI?
I suspect it would be highly impractical but could also be a possible source of income for Amtrak.

Thoughts?

Never gunna happen. Amtrak/LIRR/NJT have so many problems as it is getting trains through there... Over the years the MTA has cleared freight out of it's major junctions (mott haven & harold). LIRR stopped moving freight through harold in the 70s or early 80s so far as I can tell. Conrail wacked an overpass with an oversized car in the 90s, fouling mott haven and severely pissing off every metro north commuter that couldn't get to work that day. In today's world of social media instant complaining... I don't think anyone at the MTA would want to deal with a large freight train blocking all of their passenger service again.

Anyways - I tried researching this topic once and the absolute only references to freight moving through Penn were:

1) in 1910 (or was it 1915?) - there was a severe winter and coal shortage. NY Times reported a single 10 car coal train was planned to move through. I didn't find anything to confirm it actually ran.

2) A longer test train of hoppers and 2 electrics made a test run in the 60s or 70s, yielding many broken knuckles and concern that the tunnels (which are old, built with methods you'd never see today, and of course not in the best shape ) would not be able to handle the weight of freight trains regularly. The severe grades on either side don't help.

I heard there was a whole report written on this test train, though I've not seen it and have been curious to read if it's out there. I don't even know the title of this report, I've only heard of it on a thread here awhile back.

The circus train is as close as it'll ever get. I'm frankly surprised they allow it (even if it's largely passenger cars)

PRR did a test train thru the North and East River tunnels,however there was some movement of the tunnel
struture noticed during the test,so PRR didn't allow freight trains thru NY Penn.
The closest to a freight train is when the Circus train makes the move from NJ to Uniondale on
the LIRR via the Hempstead Branch and the Garden -Mitchell Sec track after passing thru NY Penn.
Well cars wont fit due to the 3rd rail in the tunnels(too wide).
Roadrailers and Reeferrailers could run in the tunnels(they fit in the Plate B outline).
Amtrak should not allow Haz-Mat loads in the Roadrailers.
NS is the last RR running Roadrailers in regular service.

"freight trains" do pass thru NYP, but nothing that is interchange common carrier freight. Only work train cars and the circus etc. There are no bans on freight trains thru the city, as long as they fit they can go with special routing which I believe is South Tube, 11 track, Line 1 for both east or west moves. The circus is not that heavy of a train. The Animal cars are heavy for passenger cars but light overall vs heavy freight tonnage. When that train is run thru the station they stop all traffic from newark penn and secacus to penn so that the train can go without stopping. If it stopped there could be some serious damage trying to start again or the possibility of it stalling and needing help, so a helper engine is always nearby. I am sure if the poo hit the air circulator they could run certain hot freight thru the station but I think they will truck it over before they even bother with that.

However, these did exist for carrying intermodal freight on long island to avoid the use of sending stuff thru the station. But they were a failure.
http://www.trainsarefun.com/lirr/bogies/bogies.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

With current trailer designs,the whole trailer is part of the structure,like a F-7.
will not survive a bogie move,traller would split apart.(NO center still!)

very few freight cars would fit in NYP today , other than hoppers and even then only if no load protrudes past top sills.
95% of all freight cars exceed 14' 6" height.

LIRR's M-1s and M-3s were delivered via Penn Station on special moves. Between '68 and 73 the M-1s went via RDG from Red Lion, then to PRR towed by GG1s to Harold. The M-3s went CR up the RDG to Bound Brook, then on the LV main line to Hunter, where an E60 would deliver them to Harold. These moves were done during overnight hours.

Backshophoss wrote:PRR did a test train thru the North and East River tunnels,however there was some movement of the tunnel
struture noticed during the test,so PRR didn't allow freight trains thru NY Penn.
The closest to a freight train is when the Circus train makes the move from NJ to Uniondale on
the LIRR via the Hempstead Branch and the Garden -Mitchell Sec track after passing thru NY Penn.
Well cars wont fit due to the 3rd rail in the tunnels(too wide).
Roadrailers and Reeferrailers could run in the tunnels(they fit in the Plate B outline).
Amtrak should not allow Haz-Mat loads in the Roadrailers.
NS is the last RR running Roadrailers in regular service.

Just to add some credibility to this story, back in the '70s an LIRR Trainman told me that the PRR or PC had run freight across Penn, and that the North River tunnels (which he noted were tubes lying on -- or in -- the bed of the river) had bounced as the train (or trains) went through; also, apparently the trains (he did not indicate if it was just one train: I had the impression it was more than one) were long enough to span the river and the vibration was strongest while the front and rear of the train were clear of the tubes with the center bouncing in the middle. That would correspond to the "movement of the tunnel structure" noted. And, correct, they decided it was a really bad idea.

Like others, I was never able to substantiate the story, but there are enough similar versions around that it seems reliable.

S

R36 Combine Coach wrote:LIRR's M-1s and M-3s were delivered via Penn Station on special moves. Between '68 and 73 the M-1s went via RDG from Red Lion, then to PRR towed by GG1s to Harold. The M-3s went CR up the RDG to Bound Brook, then on the LV main line to Hunter, where an E60 would deliver them to Harold. These moves were done during overnight hours.

Now these would be cool pics to see.

R36, I notice you've changed the color of your avatar. Is this something we should expect every five years? (bit of humor here...)

R36 Combine Coach wrote:LIRR's M-1s and M-3s were delivered via Penn Station on special moves. Between '68 and 73 the M-1s went via RDG from Red Lion, then to PRR towed by GG1s to Harold. The M-3s went CR up the RDG to Bound Brook, then on the LV main line to Hunter, where an E60 would deliver them to Harold. These moves were done during overnight hours.

R36:

One quick date correction about the LIRR's M1 cars: The 150 Car add-on order dates from 1972...
The car numbers were 9621-9770...

I recall being told that the main reason that the LIRR M1 fleet was delivered by night by PC was to get around payment of a transportation tax levied by the State of New Jersey as well as it
being the most convenient times to make these deliveries...

All of the M3 cars were delivered to the LIRR in 1984-85-86...The MNCR fleet came first and was tested on the LIRR before delivery to MNCR...


MACTRAXX

The tunnels are at capacity most of the time, and when they aren't, they are getting worked on. No spare room.

Now I do wonder, is there any potential for a public-private partnership? Could the rail link somehow be built to allow Amtrak, LIRR and MetroNorth to bennefit from the link.

gprimr1 wrote:The tunnels are at capacity most of the time, and when they aren't, they are getting worked on. No spare room.

Now I do wonder, is there any potential for a public-private partnership? Could the rail link somehow be built to allow Amtrak, LIRR and MetroNorth to bennefit from the link.

To be clear, I was thinking only overnight, but there were some very good points raised in this thread.

Thanks for the feedback folks.

Greg Moore wrote:With renewed talk of a cross-harbor tunnel for NYC, has Amtrak and any freight railroads ever given any thought to possibly using single-level container cars to move containers from NY to LI?
I suspect it would be highly impractical but could also be a possible source of income for Amtrak.

I'd keep in mind that the NYNJ carfloat operation exists and has seen major investment since it's come under PA ownership so it's now a reliable means of transport. I have my doubts that trying to move something through NY Penn is a more efficient solution for them whether it's allowed in theory or not.

millerm277 wrote:

Greg Moore wrote:With renewed talk of a cross-harbor tunnel for NYC, has Amtrak and any freight railroads ever given any thought to possibly using single-level container cars to move containers from NY to LI?
I suspect it would be highly impractical but could also be a possible source of income for Amtrak.

I'd keep in mind that the NYNJ carfloat operation exists and has seen major investment since it's come under PA ownership so it's now a reliable means of transport. I have my doubts that trying to move something through NY Penn is a more efficient solution for them whether it's allowed in theory or not.

Believe it or not there has been many talks etc with the PA about skipping the tunnel and increasing the carfloat operation to capacities of yesteryear. The cost to update the infrastructure for carfloats would be much cheaper than digging that tunnel for freight. Which I personally still think is insane that we could even think to have a freight tunnel being built while the passenger trains are fighting with tunnels that are literally falling apart.

ApproachMedium wrote:

millerm277 wrote:

Greg Moore wrote:With renewed talk of a cross-harbor tunnel for NYC, has Amtrak and any freight railroads ever given any thought to possibly using single-level container cars to move containers from NY to LI?
I suspect it would be highly impractical but could also be a possible source of income for Amtrak.

I'd keep in mind that the NYNJ carfloat operation exists and has seen major investment since it's come under PA ownership so it's now a reliable means of transport. I have my doubts that trying to move something through NY Penn is a more efficient solution for them whether it's allowed in theory or not.

Believe it or not there has been many talks etc with the PA about skipping the tunnel and increasing the carfloat operation to capacities of yesteryear. The cost to update the infrastructure for carfloats would be much cheaper than digging that tunnel for freight. Which I personally still think is insane that we could even think to have a freight tunnel being built while the passenger trains are fighting with tunnels that are literally falling apart.

That last thought is partly what drove my thinking here, that they'd consider a cross-harbor FREIGHT tunnel before a passenger tunnel. Yeah, the current operation (car float or up through Selkirk and down) may be inefficient, but freight isn't quite as time sensitive as passengers are. On the other hand, freight makes money... So I was thinking, if Amtrak could rent access to the tunnels for a few hours each night, it might be a win/win. But lots of good objections were raised here.