Tadman wrote:Really? I'm wrong that this is the topic at hand? *checks thread title* Mkay... :rolleyes:JoeBas wrote:None of that has the least bit of relevance to the topic at hand though, which is whether the country can and should prioritize corridors at the expense of the long distance network.You can keep saying this, and I can keep showing you empirical evidence that you're wrong. How long do you want to go? Your emotions versus my numbers, I'm ready to play.
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Fred Frailey Column- "It's Time"
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The take from Jim Mathews, president of RPA.
https://www.railpassengers.org/happenin ... nger-rail/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://www.railpassengers.org/happenin ... nger-rail/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I don't know what to tell you. What other evidence do you want me to present?
Pretend we are talking about horse and buggy instead of long distance train. A guy named Bob keeps insisting we just need political will to run stagecoaches from Chicago to places like LA, New York, SFO, Seattle.... That they still run horses as transport in a few countries, so why don't we?
Never mind there isn't even a path to run the stagecoach. No stables to hold the horses. We have to import wagons from Uzbekistan. There is no horse feed at way stations. It's not just a question of letting a horse loose to run to LA. It's a question of why rebuild an entire infrastructure when statistically nobody would use it?
Bob is crazy, and I think we can all agree on that. It's not that we don't like horses. I love horses! All kidding aside, and we're kind of having fun here, I'm a great rider. Maverick was a great movie! But no way Bob gets his stagecoach to LA.
Now that's not to say there is no use for horses. There are thousands of horses for tourists, and certain regions still see the use of the horse as a business tool, rounding up cattle and herding them aboard trains. There are millions of dollars to be made on horses, just not pulling a stagecoach to LA.
Now, replace the word "stagecoach" or "horse" with "long distance train".
Pretend we are talking about horse and buggy instead of long distance train. A guy named Bob keeps insisting we just need political will to run stagecoaches from Chicago to places like LA, New York, SFO, Seattle.... That they still run horses as transport in a few countries, so why don't we?
Never mind there isn't even a path to run the stagecoach. No stables to hold the horses. We have to import wagons from Uzbekistan. There is no horse feed at way stations. It's not just a question of letting a horse loose to run to LA. It's a question of why rebuild an entire infrastructure when statistically nobody would use it?
Bob is crazy, and I think we can all agree on that. It's not that we don't like horses. I love horses! All kidding aside, and we're kind of having fun here, I'm a great rider. Maverick was a great movie! But no way Bob gets his stagecoach to LA.
Now that's not to say there is no use for horses. There are thousands of horses for tourists, and certain regions still see the use of the horse as a business tool, rounding up cattle and herding them aboard trains. There are millions of dollars to be made on horses, just not pulling a stagecoach to LA.
Now, replace the word "stagecoach" or "horse" with "long distance train".
The new Acela: It's not Aveliable.
Maybe we should discuss ways to improve long distance and other trains.That was what 90% of Fred's blog was about.
Moderator worldwide railfan , Rail travel & trip reports
The only train trips I regret are the ones I didn't take.
The only train trips I regret are the ones I didn't take.
Tadman wrote: you didnt' see anybody in the Obama-Biden administration making moves to replace that power.Options for 150 LD Chargers.
Tadman wrote:All of that was corridor stuff. None of it was long distance.Viewliner 2.
Tadman wrote: Pretend we are talking about horse and buggy instead of long distance train.Nice strawman. You thoroughly destroyed it! Hay EVERYWHERE!!!! Woo Hoo!!!
Where's that rolleyes guy when you need him again? :rolleyes:
We're not talking about horse and buggy. We're talking about viable interstate transportation that routinely sells out despite its neglected, underfunded, marginally-utilitarian state, that with just a little bit of POSITIVE ATTENTION and actual honest-to-God investment instead of ignorance and neglect could become a true part of the overall transportation solution in this country.
You instead, want to raid it to fund your little back-and-forth benefits-the-few-at-the-cost-of-the-many corridors, which would ultimately be better appreciated, funded and understood (or not) by the people they benefit (hey, smaller government, amirite???), in a regional fashion.
Last edited by JoeBas on Wed May 08, 2019 3:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Let's see, I'm not allowed to discuss Turboliners or autonomous locomotives on RR.net, yet a moderator can post incendiary and almost certainly untrue remarks about politicians? 
rohr turbo wrote:Uh, the Chargers weren't ordered under Obama. Richard Anderson and Donald Trump, the guys who allegedly hate trains, did that.Tadman wrote: you didnt' see anybody in the Obama-Biden administration making moves to replace that power.Options for 150 LD Chargers.
JoeBas wrote:Uh, find me a long distance route that "routinely" sells out.
We're not talking about horse and buggy. We're talking about viable interstate transportation that routinely sells out despite its neglected, underfunded, marginally-utilitarian state, that with just a little bit of POSITIVE ATTENTION and actual honest-to-God investment instead of ignorance and neglect could become a true part of the overall transportation solution in this country.
You instead, want to raid it to fund your little back-and-forth benefits-the-few-at-the-cost-of-the-many corridors, which would ultimately be better appreciated, funded and understood (or not) by the people they benefit (hey, smaller government, amirite???), in a regional fashion.
The following is from 2017, but I doubt these numbers have gone up or down much:
Code: Select all
I'm sure there are days where every seat sells out, but you have to fill seats 365 days a year on a daily route, or 150 days a year on limited frequency routes. Palmetto 48%
Sunset Limited 49%
Crescent 49%
Cardinal 54%
Texas Eagle 54%
Coast Starlight 56%
Empire Builder 56%
City of New Orleans 59%
California Zephyr 59%
Silver Star 62%
Lake Shore Limited 63%
Southwest Chief 63%
Auto Train 64%
Silver Meteor 65%
Capitol Limited 66%
The numbers Amtrak reports doesn't indicate that's happening "regularly" or even close to that.
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Owner/operator of TrainSim.com (the internet's largest train simulation community)
Owner/operator of TrainSim.com (the internet's largest train simulation community)
eolesen wrote:I said OPTIONS, a necessary first step which were indeed secured in March 2014.rohr turbo wrote:Uh, the Chargers weren't ordered under Obama. Richard Anderson and Donald Trump, the guys who allegedly hate trains, did that.Tadman wrote: you didnt' see anybody in the Obama-Biden administration making moves to replace that power.Options for 150 LD Chargers.
http://www.marp.org/?p=5253" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yeah, no. The 2014 options were negotiated by IDOT and CalTrans for the consortium of states involved in the corridor procurement process. Amtrak did participate in the drafting of the 2012 operating specifications for the RFP, but from all accounts I've seen, they had zero input into the product selection or commercial negotiations with SIemens. It was commonly expected that whatever the Consortium selected would form a basis for Amtrak's own order, but I've seen no reference which says Amtrak was able to exercise options from the 2014 IDOT order independently of the Consortium...
I won't say it's not possible, but it's pretty rare for coat-tail agreements between legal entities that don't share common ownership in the real world.
My take on the fact the Consortium included a long-distance version in their order was perhaps some forward thinking of how to manage in a world without a Federal long-distance network. I can see where states like Illinois and California would choose to partner with other states for interstate services (e.g. CHI-MSP, LAX-SEA). Today, there's no vehicle for that and no incentive to do so as long as the Federal teat exists.
I'll also note that Amtrak's order for 75 has its own options for 100. Why?
Feel free to post something that can indicate otherwise.
I won't say it's not possible, but it's pretty rare for coat-tail agreements between legal entities that don't share common ownership in the real world.
My take on the fact the Consortium included a long-distance version in their order was perhaps some forward thinking of how to manage in a world without a Federal long-distance network. I can see where states like Illinois and California would choose to partner with other states for interstate services (e.g. CHI-MSP, LAX-SEA). Today, there's no vehicle for that and no incentive to do so as long as the Federal teat exists.
I'll also note that Amtrak's order for 75 has its own options for 100. Why?
Feel free to post something that can indicate otherwise.
==============================================
Owner/operator of TrainSim.com (the internet's largest train simulation community)
Owner/operator of TrainSim.com (the internet's largest train simulation community)
Tad said no one made any moves to prepare P42 replacements during the Obama years.
Split hairs all you want, but it sure appears Amtrak was involved in technical specs (both corridor&LD), must have negotiated price (LD), and got in the queue. It's not nothing.
Split hairs all you want, but it sure appears Amtrak was involved in technical specs (both corridor&LD), must have negotiated price (LD), and got in the queue. It's not nothing.
eolesen wrote:A lot of the confusion there is that's it's the bedrooms that routinely sell out. Coach seats are almost always available and roomettes are most of the time.rohr turbo wrote:Uh, the Chargers weren't ordered under Obama. Richard Anderson and Donald Trump, the guys who allegedly hate trains, did that.Tadman wrote: you didnt' see anybody in the Obama-Biden administration making moves to replace that power.Options for 150 LD Chargers.
JoeBas wrote:Uh, find me a long distance route that "routinely" sells out.
We're not talking about horse and buggy. We're talking about viable interstate transportation that routinely sells out despite its neglected, underfunded, marginally-utilitarian state, that with just a little bit of POSITIVE ATTENTION and actual honest-to-God investment instead of ignorance and neglect could become a true part of the overall transportation solution in this country.
You instead, want to raid it to fund your little back-and-forth benefits-the-few-at-the-cost-of-the-many corridors, which would ultimately be better appreciated, funded and understood (or not) by the people they benefit (hey, smaller government, amirite???), in a regional fashion.
The following is from 2017, but I doubt these numbers have gone up or down much:
Code: Select allI'm sure there are days where every seat sells out, but you have to fill seats 365 days a year on a daily route, or 150 days a year on limited frequency routes.Palmetto 48% Sunset Limited 49% Crescent 49% Cardinal 54% Texas Eagle 54% Coast Starlight 56% Empire Builder 56% City of New Orleans 59% California Zephyr 59% Silver Star 62% Lake Shore Limited 63% Southwest Chief 63% Auto Train 64% Silver Meteor 65% Capitol Limited 66%
The numbers Amtrak reports doesn't indicate that's happening "regularly" or even close to that.
So, the bedroom supply is too low and he coach & Roomette price point is generally too high. Extrapolating, the diner on western LDs probably costs enough to operate that the roomette fare has to be kept higher than it otherwise could be.
We aren’t getting more Superliner bedrooms anytime soon, unless Amtrak can make miracles from the Beech Grove dead line or converts roomettes (or coaches!) into bedrooms. Their price has to stay high for the moment, but by decoupling food from the roomette fare and lowering prices accordingly you might fill those berths. Making the diner prepaid might help too, we’ve discussed adding diner vouchers at the booking stage that can be purchased by anyone from coach.
It’s a larger problem though, and these initiatives still would only return pennies on the dollars.
We aren’t getting more Superliner bedrooms anytime soon, unless Amtrak can make miracles from the Beech Grove dead line or converts roomettes (or coaches!) into bedrooms. Their price has to stay high for the moment, but by decoupling food from the roomette fare and lowering prices accordingly you might fill those berths. Making the diner prepaid might help too, we’ve discussed adding diner vouchers at the booking stage that can be purchased by anyone from coach.
It’s a larger problem though, and these initiatives still would only return pennies on the dollars.
mtuandrew wrote:We aren’t getting more Superliner bedrooms anytime soon, unless Amtrak can make miracles from the Beech Grove dead line or converts roomettes (or coaches!) into bedrooms. .Wholly agree, Mr. Stephens.
WIth hindsight the V-II Sleepers should have been configured 8BR-4RM. No need for an "H Room" as the requirement is one per train and not per car.