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  • FRA Enhanced Long Distance Network Map

  • Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.
Discussion related to Amtrak also known as the National Railroad Passenger Corp.

Moderators: GirlOnTheTrain, mtuandrew, Tadman

 #1627948  by Steamguy73
 
There’s two issues with these maps.

1. It doesn’t take into account how serious certain proposals are versus others.

Big sky passenger rail for instance is a very serious group trying to restore the southern passenger route in Montana and North Dakota. That’s on the map proposal.

But also on the map proposal are lines and ideas that are just that: ideas that don’t have any kind of political backing. Pie in the sky.

The map would be better only including those routes with serious political efforts in returning these services.

2. Putting them all together is just too overwhelming. At best, maps should be done by state for the map to not get too cluttered, and for the focus to be put where it needs to be: on the states.
 #1627970  by markhb
 
BandA wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:26 pm I didn't see anything interesting for New England.
You have good eyes. There's nothing in New England, not the Inland Route, not even under Rural Accessibility for the northern states despite the fact that Maine's interior counties all have some sort of "disadvantaged" coloring to them. This may be fallout from the fact that the "Northeast" planning session was held in Philadelphia.
 #1627974  by rohr turbo
 
Jeff Smith wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2023 6:07 am Some of these routes, such as the inland full-length Seattle (Portland?) to LA, are non-sensical, at least IMHO.
Can you point me to where they proposed this route and why you and Tadman object to it?
 #1628007  by rohr turbo
 
I looked through most of the presentations and maps. Nowhere did I see mention of LD trains from Seattle/Portland going down the California Central Valley, which I assume is what you mean be 'inland.'

But actually they SHOULD. There are more population centers between Oakland and LA down the central valley than along the coast. Couple that with CAHSR already under construction of a double-track, elevated, straight, no-freight-interference ROW -- this will make train travel (intrastate and LD) much faster and more reliable.

A few years ago I read that SF-LA was the busiest air travel corridor in the world. Not sure if that's still the case. But Oakland airport alone has 60+ flights a day to LA airports. Why not finally offer a one-seat "relatively fast" train over this route?

San Joaquin is already the 4th busiest state-supported Amtrak route in the country. And that's with poor/indirect connections to San Jose, San Francisco, and LA. https://media.amtrak.com/wp-content/upl ... ership.pdf More passengers than any LD. It's a no-brainer to connect Bakersfield with LA -- via Barstow in the short term and over/under the Grapevine eventually.

Duplicative?? That short Bakersfield-Barstow green line that you apparently object to will yield a higher ROI for Amtrak ridership than most any other route I see on the map.

California population density map: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia ... on_map.png
 #1628046  by rcthompson04
 
markhb wrote: Fri Aug 25, 2023 12:03 pm
BandA wrote: Thu Aug 24, 2023 11:26 pm I didn't see anything interesting for New England.
You have good eyes. There's nothing in New England, not the Inland Route, not even under Rural Accessibility for the northern states despite the fact that Maine's interior counties all have some sort of "disadvantaged" coloring to them. This may be fallout from the fact that the "Northeast" planning session was held in Philadelphia.
What is the consequence of having a northeast planning session in Philadelphia?
 #1628065  by markhb
 
Farther away = potentially less representation from New England. NNEPRA was listed as being in attendance, along with (I assume, didn't look too closely) other area agencies, but the fact remains that the ONLY new service recommendation that came out of the Northeast planning session was Pittsburgh-Columbus.
 #1628074  by extraordinaire
 
We're a few pages into this thread so it might be good to discuss what the FRA have actually been tasked to do here.

From https://fralongdistancerailstudy.org/
WHAT IS THE LONG-DISTANCE SERVICE STUDY?
Section 22214 of the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) of 2021 tasks the FRA, under delegation from the Secretary of Transportation, with conducting an Amtrak Daily Long-Distance Service Study to evaluate the restoration of daily intercity passenger rail service and the potential for new Amtrak long-distance routes. Under BIL, the FRA is required to conduct a study to evaluate the restoration of daily intercity rail passenger service along:
  • any Amtrak long-distance routes that were discontinued; and
  • any Amtrak long-distance routes that occur on a nondaily basis.
  • In evaluating intercity passenger rail routes, FRA may evaluate potential new Amtrak long-distance routes, including with specific attention provided to routes in service as of April 1971 but not continued by Amtrak, taking into consideration whether those new routes would:
    • link and serve large and small communities as part of a regional rail network;
    • advance the economic and social well-being of rural areas of the United States;
    • provide enhanced connectivity for the national long-distance passenger rail system; and
    • reflect public engagement and local and regional support for restored passenger rail service.
So there's a particular study that the folks writing the Infrastructure Investment and Jobs Act 2021 wanted doing and the FRA have been given the task.

The full text of section 22214 isn't too long if anyone wants to look it up.

It's worth saying straight away that...
WHAT ARE LONG-DISTANCE ROUTES?
Statutorily Defined
Routes over 750 miles, between endpoints that Amtrak operates, as of the Passenger Rail Investment and Improvement Act of 2008.
...there's a minimum length of 750 miles that will be required for any route in this study. It's a very different beast to the Connects US report - this one is focussing on long routes that would be eligible to be fully funded by the Federal government. And the funding legislation has a particular fixation on old discontinued routes.

This explains why nothing interesting is showing up in the North East. There's no sensible 750 mile routes that wouldn't be better funded by a Regional Rail or Commuter Rail Agency.

The legislation also insists that the study consults with an extensive list of stakeholders. The map we're all looking at isn't a proposal to run a bunch of extra trains. It's a diagram explaining to people they're consulting with what the study is looking at, and how it ticks all the boxes they are required to tick by the legislation funding the report.

It's interesting that congress were happy to send $15m in the direction of this study, and it's probably the most interest they've shown in growing the Long Distance network in some time.

But as the cynics in the thread above have already noted, even once we can read the full study and some estimated costs, there would be a long way to go to get any of it funded.
 #1631310  by Midlands Steve
 
StLouSteve wrote: Tue Aug 22, 2023 5:21 am Midlands Steve wrote: " . . . and no service east of St. Louis since late 1979."

Wait, you're forgetting about the rail service through your hometown of Belleville, IL that connected KC and STL with CONO (and if I recall correctly had a through sleeper and/or dome). It's now a connecting van but was a train connection in the 80s (early 90s?).

OK, it only went east a hundred miles or so but still it allowed someone in STL to use an eastern region rail pass by just adding an inexpensive connecting fare.
When I stated no service east of St. Louis since late 1979, I was referring to the STL-IND portion of a proposed route from OKC to IND. I am well aware of the old River Cities train (1984-1993) which ran east from STL, for 61 miles, to Centralia, before heading south, and had the pleasure of riding it several times. Perhaps another candidate for revival.
 #1638734  by ryanwc
 
I wonder whether a Centralia shuttle could work to connect to not only City of New Orleans destinations south, but also to the U of I in Champaign on Illini/Saluki trains?
 #1638825  by STrRedWolf
 
Supposedly there's been a leak of FRA's third round of studies making the rounds on various Discord servers and Twitter... and that FRA's considering these routes (Source):
GGYjyddbMAA_wPc.jpeg
GGYjyddbMAA_wPc.jpeg (309.57 KiB) Viewed 721 times
  1. Seattle-Portland-Boise-Salt Lake City-Denver
  2. Billings-Cheyenne-Denver-Albuquerque-El Paso
  3. Dallas-Tulsa-St. Louis-Indianapolis-Cincinatti-Columbus-Pittsburgh-Philadelphia-NYC
  4. Chicago-Indy-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanouga-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami
  5. Detroit-Columbus-Cincinati-Louisville-Nashville-Birmingham-Mobile-New Orleans
  6. Denver-Cheyenne-Rapid City-Sioux Falls-Minneapolis/St. Paul
A route theorized but not pinned down yet is Dallas-Shreveport-Jackson-Birmingham-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami. All routes use existing track and freight routes.
 #1638881  by Steamguy73
 
Some of these are strong ideas. The Floridian, Pioneer, Desert Wind, North Coast Hiawatha, and even a couple of the other ones that have never been in Amtrak like Denver to Fort Worth and Dallas to Miami are good ideas

There’s other routes though (looking at Denver to twin cities via South Dakota) that either make no sense or are just ploys: either to make states look like they want service there, or to try to get service on certain portions to bypass the state funding 750 mile stuff: clear examples being the train from NYC to Dallas via the Midwest, and Minneapolis to phoenix as well. That one passing through Houston to DC is also a joke.

Some great ideas. Some complete nonsense.
 #1638887  by electricron
 
STrRedWolf wrote: Thu Feb 15, 2024 8:01 pm Supposedly there's been a leak of FRA's third round of studies making the rounds on various Discord servers and Twitter... and that FRA's considering these routes (Source):
GGYjyddbMAA_wPc.jpeg
  1. Seattle-Portland-Boise-Salt Lake City-Denver
  2. Billings-Cheyenne-Denver-Albuquerque-El Paso
  3. Dallas-Tulsa-St. Louis-Indianapolis-Cincinatti-Columbus-Pittsburgh-Philadelphia-NYC
  4. Chicago-Indy-Louisville-Nashville-Chattanouga-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami
  5. Detroit-Columbus-Cincinati-Louisville-Nashville-Birmingham-Mobile-New Orleans
  6. Denver-Cheyenne-Rapid City-Sioux Falls-Minneapolis/St. Paul
A route theorized but not pinned down yet is Dallas-Shreveport-Jackson-Birmingham-Atlanta-Jacksonville-Miami. All routes use existing track and freight routes.
Under BIL, the FRA is required to conduct a study to evaluate the restoration of daily intercity rail passenger service along:
any Amtrak long-distance routes that were discontinued; and
any Amtrak long-distance routes that occur on a nondaily basis.
In evaluating intercity passenger rail routes, FRA may evaluate potential new Amtrak long-distance routes, including with specific attention provided to routes in service as of April 1971 but not continued by Amtrak,

Very Important Point, none of the routes in the list above match the BIL specifications for lines to be studied.
Most long distance passenger trains were long gone by 1971. The two triweekly trains are not bering studied for daily trains. None of the Amtrak cancelled trains are being studied.
Why? Can Amtrak not read the specific clauses in the legislation, passed by both houses in Congress and signed by Joe?