Developing the air rights over Sunnyside Yard

Sunday's New York Times has a "quite interesting" Opinion, repeat Opinion, column suggesting that the New York City Convention Center be relocated to atop Sunnyside Yard. Aside from being likely the world's largest underground rail yard and further a source of otherwise avoidable employee injuries,

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opini ... thing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brief passage:

The key is to replace the Javits Center. There’s been talk over the years of expanding it, but that won’t solve the affordability problem. Fortunately, the perfect undeveloped location for a new convention center exists at Sunnyside Yards, the more than 160-acre rail yard that carves a nasty scar through the heart of Queens.

Sunnyside Yards is adjacent to Long Island City, a neighborhood that has blossomed in recent years with new residents and businesses, including nearly 20 new hotels since 2007, with almost as many currently under construction or in the planning stages. The average hotel room rate in Queens is less than half that of Manhattan; a convention center on the border of Long Island City would go a long way toward solving the affordability problem that holds the Javits Center back.

No more railviewing approaching Penn Station - from both East and West (Hudson Yards)? "Sorry 'bout that".

Its a bad idea to have a railyard underground for many reasons. Mainly, employee and contractor safety, ventilation and egress in case of fire or other emergencies.

Mr. Asul, I have to agree with you regarding employee injuries that would otherwise be avoidable in the daylight. However what I think will control are the air rights revenue. One can only hope the covered area will be properly lighted, but with so many "if's" as is, all we can do is wait and see.

Are there currently any underground rail yards in the world that are similar in size to Sunnyside? I know GCT uses several storage tracks, but I would consider that comparing apples to oranges.

I wonder how well that will go over with the diesel locomotives in the yard. Didnt the Sierra club do some research on how bad the Diesels were up in Albany? Those same diesels idle 24 hours a day in sunnyside. Also there is always a potential for fires, increasingly so with the electric locomotives and it being a yard service facility. I know I have had a few close calls and some smokey results after a few power modules blew up in the AEM-7ACs.

The bright side though, is Amtrak will save millions of dollars on lost productivity due to bad weather, costs of clearing snow and salting the walkways (plus employee related injuries), costs of running torpedo heaters to thaw out cars and last but not least the millions to build the S&I buildings needed to maintain these trains and keep them thawed out in the winter. Not to mention if Amtrak is selling the air rights, then there should be a revenue income from the space above. If they were smart they would retain ownership of it and lease the space out to whoever wants to build. Constant source of income would help offset the costs of the railroad in the area.

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Asul, I have to agree with you regarding employee injuries that would otherwise be avoidable in the daylight. However what I think will control are the air rights revenue. One can only hope the covered area will be properly lighted, but with so many "if's" as is, all we can do is wait and see.

If the site is well lit then there should be less injuries, because the sun is variable and is often to bright. Of course, it would probably not be well lit, unless the union demand it. Unions tend to focus on less important issues than lighting.

zerovanity59 wrote:

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Mr. Asul, I have to agree with you regarding employee injuries that would otherwise be avoidable in the daylight. However what I think will control are the air rights revenue. One can only hope the covered area will be properly lighted, but with so many "if's" as is, all we can do is wait and see.

If the site is well lit then there should be less injuries, because the sun is variable and is often to bright. Of course, it would probably not be well lit, unless the union demand it. Unions tend to focus on less important issues than lighting.

One of the largest complaints all around in sunnyside yard is the poor lighting that currently exists. Its a dangerous place to work with golf carts, forklifts, pick up trucks for the poo and other vehicles zipping around all night. The trucks have headlights, but the forklifts and golf carts either barely work or do not. The lights are not everywhere, and once all the trains are in lighting is shadowed a lot. If whatever they build over the yard is anything like the Penn station overbuild between 9th and 10th with the LED lighting underneath it should be fine. The LED lighting is fantastic and I wish they would spread the same lighting features around to the rest of the overbuilds of the station.

This certainly could be done from a technical perspective. So far, however, there is considerable opposition, including from NIMBYs in Queens. I think it would need a politically-prominent sponsor, such as Cuomo or Deblasio, to get the needed traction.

I'll add this link to the thread since it is related to Sunnyside yard. I think it's a great idea for a number of reasons but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

http://gizmodo.com/a-radical-plan-to-fi ... 1658076313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Gilbert B Norman wrote:Sunday's New York Times has a "quite interesting" Opinion, repeat Opinion, column suggesting that the New York City Convention Center be relocated to atop Sunnyside Yard. Aside from being likely the world's largest underground rail yard and further a source of otherwise avoidable employee injuries,

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/30/opini ... thing.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Brief passage:

The key is to replace the Javits Center. There’s been talk over the years of expanding it, but that won’t solve the affordability problem. Fortunately, the perfect undeveloped location for a new convention center exists at Sunnyside Yards, the more than 160-acre rail yard that carves a nasty scar through the heart of Queens.

Sunnyside Yards is adjacent to Long Island City, a neighborhood that has blossomed in recent years with new residents and businesses, including nearly 20 new hotels since 2007, with almost as many currently under construction or in the planning stages. The average hotel room rate in Queens is less than half that of Manhattan; a convention center on the border of Long Island City would go a long way toward solving the affordability problem that holds the Javits Center back.

No more railviewing approaching Penn Station - from both East and West (Hudson Yards)? "Sorry 'bout that".

Why would they replace the Javits Center, when the subway is about to open a station right next to it?

Likely, Mr. All Business (zerovanity), the columnist and any other advocates out there, believe that the land vacated by the Javits Center would be reused for something high value. So far as the IRT "World's Fair Line", i.e. 39-40 vintage, being extended over that way, who knows. Likely for whatever is built, a staging area for Black Lincolns would see better use.

I suppose that if they are spending the amount of money that it would cost to build something like this, why not go a bit further and put service corridors for electric vehicles under the tracks and (eliminate) minimize vehicle access at track level. The "pooh" trucks could be eliminated by having access to sewer line connections at appropriate locations to empty the waste by hoses connected to the cars. The corridors under the tracks could also allow very safe and convenient pedestrian access with strategic vertical access to the railroad tracks from below.
There should be no reason for a facility like this to be poorly lit.
S

pennstation wrote:I'll add this link to the thread since it is related to Sunnyside yard. I think it's a great idea for a number of reasons but I can't see it happening in my lifetime.

http://gizmodo.com/a-radical-plan-to-fi ... 1658076313" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I can't see that happening in seventeen lifetimes.

No comment on the yard proposal. However, I feel that Mr. Norman missed the perfect pun - "Sunnyside Down."

hh660 wrote:I suppose that if they are spending the amount of money that it would cost to build something like this, why not go a bit further and put service corridors for electric vehicles under the tracks and (eliminate) minimize vehicle access at track level. The "pooh" trucks could be eliminated by having access to sewer line connections at appropriate locations to empty the waste by hoses connected to the cars. The corridors under the tracks could also allow very safe and convenient pedestrian access with strategic vertical access to the railroad tracks from below.
There should be no reason for a facility like this to be poorly lit.
S

You need vehicle access at track level, how else are the formans, tech repair crews, trash collection, food/catering supply going to access the trains? Its not like the vehicles are aimlessly passing thru the yard on a whatever basis. They are all integrated with the function of the railyard at track level or they wouldnt be there at all. Sunnyside also already has some kind of underground tunnel network for the steam pipes. Its over 100 years old and was made before the yard was made. I never went down there, but i hear its quite a terror.

The poo truck, or as us sunnyside people call it the dump trucks would be eliminated if an S&I building was made for the trains, like in boston and DC. The S&I buildings have built in waste collection systems.

Do keep in mind though, that out of all of amtraks passenger rail yards Sunnyside sees more daily departures in one day than any other single passenger rail yard in the nation on their service network. It is a lot of trains to service during the day, and a lot of trains to service at night. The size of an S&I building that would be needed to meet the demands of just the overnight shift would need to be at least 5-6 tracks wide vs. boston and DC that only have two tracks I think.