Bringing LV equipment to Victor Rail Days...

Hey all,
I just recieved my Editorials Update on the LVRRHS, and the main attraction to catch my eye was the new LVRRHS/Victor Rail Days event in planning stages, and one thing that came to mind instantly was the excursion aspect of the whole event.
I know we would lease FGLK equipment for the excursions, but the lack of formal LVRR survivors is just saddening.
But, thats where my 'over-active' imagination came spittin and sputtering, grinding and bouncin to life. Be prepared to see a flood of "Possible" Ideas.

firstly, with the heavy lack of preserved Lehigh Valley Equipment, lets try to make due with whats availible.
Already, the first things come to mind are FGLK 1751, and FGLK 2201, both locomotive types the LV owned.
1751 could become LV 301 for a day or 2, and 2201 could become 510 for a day. Well, theres a start. Now, we're getting as handle on things.
As of other units, could it be possible that 414 was brought up from SRNJ in NJ? that would be a nice unit to bring up.
and for a large finally, Get contact of NS or CPrail about a GP38-2. Theres a possibility right there. That, a caboose, (possibly the one in manchester behind the school?) and a boxcar, and we'd have a rolling museum.
I know, alot of these things may not seem possible to some of you, but a kid with an ambition to show the People of the Finger Lakes how the LV got it done 30 some odd years ago is very strong, like how i tried to offer my dice about the Roundhouse restoration.

All i ask is opinions, and hopefully help from other LVRRHS members.
I would die to see a LV C420, GP38-2, and U23B all together. we'd really show those people how the Lehigh got it done back in the day

Now, lets bring this project some well needed light and put some things into motion!!
Cheers,
Sean

Would cost an ungodly sum to bring the 414 to Shortsville. Might be easier to get the URHS "LV" F7's since they belong to a historical society, they were operable, and they're not in regular service.

You can't really do a one-day or one-week temp paint job a locomotive; I'm not sure what you're getting at beyond that.

Boxcars you have right there in Manchester -

No doubt many people on these forums - myself included - would love to see LV power running that line. The problem is that such an affair is hoping to attract thousands of people in order to be successful. And that means the overwhelming majority of folks will be non-railfans. It's not going to matter one bit whether the loco is numbered 1751 or 301, whether it's gray and black or Cornell Red, or what lettering is on the side. John Q. Public and kids are going to see that it's a train, and that's all. If something is readily at hand it may work out - for example Sean mentions Victor and it's possible FGLK would use 2201 for such a train. But to bring actual LV equipment would cost far more than is practical, and would not materially add to the turnout.

It's a great idea Sean, and I share your wish. But here's a question - say for example they run that excursion out of Victor using FGLK power with NYC lightning stripes. Will you be there? I'm betting you say yes. So if you'll be there anyway, there is nothing to be gained by spending perhaps 10 grand in freight alone, to bring an actual LV loco to the area and return it when it's over.

yes, that would be useful, but i didnt take into pre-mind of the costs(damn myself again!)
Well, if we could atleast put 1751 into 301 for a week or so, then pair it with 2201, im sure a few lehighers would be happy to see atleast something lehigh valley, except models. the F7s seem like a plausible idea, but i dont know. Maybe if we got something for the SRNJ, etc to get them to haul 414 up here, but the 414 idea seems outta the question for now.
Hopefully new light shines on us!
Cheers,
Sean

lvrr325 wrote:Would cost an ungodly sum to bring the 414 to Shortsville. Might be easier to get the URHS "LV" F7's since they belong to a historical society, they were operable, and they're not in regular service.

You can't really do a one-day or one-week temp paint job a locomotive; I'm not sure what you're getting at beyond that.

Boxcars you have right there in Manchester -

^^
Yes, but those are on friction Bearing trucks, and we dont have the money as the LVRRHS to get some roller bearing trucks to put one of those cars on. its now mandated by the FRA that any locomotive or car that has friction bearing trucks is not allowed to travel over any rails at speed unless its dead-in-town, or on a flatcar of some sorts.
I wish we could bend the rules, but we cant..
Cheers,
Sean

Plain bearing cars can be used and moved all you want on a host railroad. Say FGLK and there transfer cabs... They can move at track speed if the railroad will allow it. You just cannot interchange them. Same issue that FGLK had when they got the cabs. CSXT would not move them because the plain bearings. I have moved many cars many miles and changed trucks from plain to rollers and it's just not that big a deal. Plus if the FRA made a plain bearing rule than FGLK would be out of luck as all the power has plain support bearings as do almost all locomotives. The other thing is that plain bearings are ok so long as you take care of them and kepp the pads wet. The other thing is that the oil in a plain bearing does not begin to move until the bearing or axle speed is about 10 to 12 MPH. So this FRA rule would make it hard to prove that they are bad? Lvrr325 is right on the 1751.. Mike will not let you paint the 1751 unless you pay to have it repainted after. So that would be say $10k? When I had an RS-3 painted this year it cost a little over 5k and I cheaped out on the deal. As for outside cars and locos.. The CNY Chapter has a LV cab you could help fix up and use part time. That would work but it's also going to be on FGLK as soon as we can get the combined res piped back in. I can tell you that getting anything offline will be a pain no matter where it is. We are going to have NYC RS-3 #8223 on FGLK this spring and what a pain! We had to start working last year to get this ready, I had to make sure it was first in the shop in Rome and that it is good to go plus there is UMLER to deal with on top of CSXT insepections because it's over 40 years old. These old girls are good but like anything big.... The bigger they are the harder they fall! So don't get the idea that moving 150 ton locomotives is easy. Nice ideas just hard to do for one weekend. The best thing might be to get with the other historical groups around FGLK like CNY, RGV, and so on to have a FGLK railfan event that would be system wide? A week long event could be something. Use FGLK and RGV cars and maybe ADCR cars too, Locomotives? NYC 8223, DL&W 808 & 807, FGLK 1751 & 2201, Tioga Central 506, that's a start plus you get Alco, EMD & GE! The CNY also has a NICE NYC bay window cab. That might be at Martisco soon to.

JJ-

BR&P wrote:It's a great idea Sean, and I share your wish. But here's a question - say for example they run that excursion out of Victor using FGLK power with NYC lightning stripes. Will you be there? I'm betting you say yes. So if you'll be there anyway, there is nothing to be gained by spending perhaps 10 grand in freight alone, to bring an actual LV loco to the area and return it when it's over.

I have to agree. Unless there was a large convention in the area (a highly unlikely event), I highly doubt the ridership count would justify the cost of moving just one former LV engine here. I will settle for lightning stripes on the former LV, just to have passenger excursions on occasion. Indeed, I was quite happy to see an NYC-inspired livery on former PRR rails a few days back, because it meant a passenger train actually returned to a location of great sentimental value to me.

Sean, these kind of events have to be profitable. I doubt any of us here, including you, would put money into a business venture knowing there would be no return on that investment. The passenger operations which last turn a profit. Worry about getting the trains to Victor first. Maybe the time will come later when FGLK will be able to purchase a former LV engine or two, or maybe not. In the meantime, let's make sure we support these trips and tell our family/friends/co-workers/fellow students, so FGLK has the financial incentive to continue the excursions.

The Man - actually most locos today are on roller bearings, NOT friction bearings. To the best of my knowledge ALL FGLK's power is rollers. OMID's S-4 might still be on friction bearings, and the SW9 on ONCT has one of each.

But the overall point remains - these things cost real dollars, and the first two questions for any new idea should be "How much will it cost?" and "Who is going to pay the money, and why?" (Or is that three questions? )

I can think of all sorts of things I'd like to see from a historical or fan point of view - unfortunately we must deal in reality and most of those things will never be practical enough to happen.

BR&P.. Almost all traction motor support bearings are plain not roller. Some newer AC locomotives have rollers for support bearings. Any how... The CNY chapter has run several events on ADCR, NYSW and FGLK as well as OMID and even LA&L back when they had a steam engine. But look at the 1998 NRHS convention in Syracuse. We had NYSW 142, 2400 & 2402, Steamtown power and I think 261 wondered up as well. Plus the chapter E-8's. Most all of historic train rides are a gamble. Some times you will bust and some times you don't. In this case I can see it working as a railfan event and train rides as well as night photos. Given the right situation you can make something out of nothing. In seven days you can do many things. So let's take a trip into "what if land"

One trip that could be cool and is something that can be done is..
Solvay to Auburn with a stop at Hartlot to let a photo freight pass with the power on the passenger train being the NYC 8223 on one end and the D&H/TCRR RS-3u 506 on the other end to double up the run by. The power on the other train could be 2201 and something that would be a railfan dream is to have it MUed to the LV 211! That could be a nice $50.00 trip and fans pay more than that for less.. Plus you can juice it up at Auburn and switch power and have the 2201 on one end of the passenger train and the 211 on the other end.

Another could be Auburn to Geneva with DL&W E-8's with an office car on the tail or even the New York Central Creek car from NJ.. This can be done with an Amtrak drop at Syracuse. And for power on the freight? NYC 8223 and FGLK 1751?

I don't know how the rest of the FGLK system is set up but I am sure you get the idea. Plus with the CNY NRHS cabs from the LV and NYC you could have cabs on the ends and those sell as well.

Some night photos that would be nice are.. NYC 8223 at Martisco, LV 211 and NYC 8223 with 2201 and 1751 at Geneva yard.. NYC 8223 and FGLK 1751 at Hartlot. I am sure there are some other good locations as well.

All of these are tricks that have been done before and work. Also take note that these trips only take one FGLK unit at a time from the railroad.

JJ-

The Man - We're dealing with two separate items here. As you correctly say, the vast majority of traction motor support bearings are not roller bearings. But there is no issue with interchanging locos due to those. The problem comes when the axles have friction bearings. They are prohibited in revenue interchange service, and the large carriers have decided they don't want to have to deal with them on special moves. Hence the need for swapping out trucks if you're going to move a friction-bearing loco over the big guys.

Some of these ideas might work, others probably would not. Almost anything is possible given enough time and money. When making the transition from wishing to reality, be sure your calculator has several places, and can make a lot of zeros.

While we're playing "what if", don't forget LV business car 353.

The business car would be nice, but looking at it from a point you guys have mentioned already, it would cost a fourtune to get it up here, and to convince Steamtown to let us use it. im sure they dont want others touching that car unless someone pays through the mouth to get that car up here.
I dont know. Hopefully once we get repairs on the historical society's building done, maybe we can get some funds to get one of those boxcars over into shortsville, so some work can be done. I'd estimate about 5-6k to get the car out, let alone another 4-5k for them to unbury the tracks to the boxcars. plus, the cost for fixing the airlines, and making sure the thing will actually roll, instead of having 1751, etc trying to drag the car out of its position because the brakes were frozen. I guess i gotta start viewing these things from a financial stand-point. I know these are good ideas, but hey, the LVRRHS, RGVRRM, and CNY RRHS don't have enough money among the three of us to bring a former Lehigh locomotive back to the area. It would be nice to bring the C420 in Oak ridge and in New Jersey Up, but the costs would kill us the first mile of their journies.
As for the FGLK buying a former Lehigh locomotive? Very unlikely, unless we can confirm that the Uboats out on that quarry railroad are LV units, or CPrail and NS decides to sell some GP38-2s, hopefully one of which, being of LV ancestry. But, since FGLK is more of a GE road than EMD, i dont think they will get any EMDs higher than a GP9.
I guess i rest another case, sadly.
Cheers,
Sean

The 353 is not owned by steamtown.. I know the deal on that car since my uncle was one of the owner and we also owned the LV 408 as well but we bid it out just to unload it along with another we had. As for those box cars.. Are they on the FGLK? If so PM me as I have a certification in air brake repair and that is what I do for a living and since FGLK has said they wil move the LV 95033 from Solvay to Martisco I think they would move the box cars. Anyhow lets keep dreaming since that is what all museums are made of!

JJ-

It's not a case of unburying the tracks. The track the boxcars are on is not physically connected to anything - they are stranded. And there is no place at present to take the cars to in Shortsville anyway. If the LV Museum folks built a small length of track to display the car, a crane and lowboy would probably be the best option.

And the cars occasionally get moved a very short distance by the grain dealer, so the bearings are not frozen up or anything. They have been picked over for parts, some are missing couplers etc.

Bottom line: with wheelbarrow-fulls of cash, anything is possible. Though I think we all appreciate Sean's enthusiasm.

I can't tell you how many times I wondered why this group didn't do this and that group didn't do that and why they don't paint this and why can't we borrow that... someone had to sit me down and explain it was money, money, and money.

I can't find anything about Victor Rail Days on the LVRRHS web site?

http://www.lvrrhs.org/


-otto-