• Brightline (All Aboard Florida) Orlando - Miami FL FEC fka Virgin Rail

  • This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
    Websites: Current Brightline
    Virgin USA
    Virgin UK
This is a forum for all operations, both current and planned, of Brightline, formerly All Aboard Florida and Virgin Trains USA:
Websites: Current Brightline
Virgin USA
Virgin UK

Moderator: CRail

  by electricron
 
Arlington wrote:The funny thing is, if they are serious, it will likely happen very fast--the project costs too much to do slowly. While we can say that freight and commercial real estate developments will contribute to the payback, the freight payback is small enough (and the commercial tenants will be skeptical enough) that until the passenger trains are in revenue service the project looks like a whole lot of debt and not enough revenue.

So it is kind of like freight double-stacking, because being 100% done means you've spent 100% of the cost and get 100% of the upside, but being 90% done means you've spent 90% of the cost but are getting only 10% - 20% of the upside--the returns on being done are 5x the returns on being partly done.

So once you've decided to do it, you have to be prepared to do it fast and all at once.
It's amazing how fast privately funded construction projects are completed in comparison of publicly funded construction projects.
I agree with you, once construction has started, it'll be completed quickly.
  by Noel Weaver
 
I hope you folks are right, I am not getting any younger and I would like to ride the first trains.
Noel Weaver
  by Jeff Smith
 
A comparison to Acela: http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida ... r-all.html

Sorry, subscription required for whole article, but here's a brief quote:
The hassles of air travel in the post-911 era may be the ticket to success for All Aboard Florida’s plans for a high-speed passenger rail service between Miami and Orlando.

Amtrak’s Acela service has gone from having a third of the market share vs. airlines in travel between Washington and New York, to having a 75 percent share nationally, as noted in a recent New York Times article.

Florida East Coast Industries has signified its commitment to its $1 billion All Aboard concept by hiring a well-seasoned trio of executives with a track record in planning stations, designing rail infrastructure ...
  by Champlain Division
 
JetTrain! Wake up! Florida needs you!!!! (again) ;)
  by Gilbert B Norman
 
Despite all the hoopla that the general circulation, and even the business, media has engendered over this proposal, I still contend that no revenue passenger mile of transportation will move over the Florida East Coast FOR THEIR OWN ACCOUNT. While the proposed Amtrak operation over FEC lines may or may not move forth, that is independent of this proposal.

As I've noted over at this topic, there is distinct possibility that the East Coast maritime ports, of which Miami is one of such, may be on a ruinous competitive run. For ready reference, here is The Times article from which I draw this thought:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/us/us ... pands.html

Brief passage:

  • Moving goods by water is generally cheaper than moving them by land because of the economies of scale of moving so many containers on those big ships, said John Martin, a ports consultant in Lancaster, Pa. So that would suggest canal routes will offer lower-cost shipping to the East Coast and Midwest through the canal.

    But, he said, containers loaded on the West Coast, which has built up its container yards and highway and rail infrastructure, can outrun those that travel to the East Coast by water, and that can make the difference when speed and dependability are more important than cost alone. Besides, he added, costs and fees can shift; Panama can be expected to raise rates for canal passage, and “the railroads are not going to sit idly by” and let the water route undercut their businessScudder Smith, a consultant with the engineering consulting firm Parsons Brinkerhoff, said that a water passage, “all things being equal, will cause cost reductions — but all things are not equal,” he added, and so “I’m not at all confident in any numbers.”

    That could be why J. Christopher Lytle, executive director of the Port of Long Beach, does not sound a bit worried. “There’s just not going to be a huge movement of cargo from the West Coast to the East Coast,” he said.

    His port, and its counterpart in Los Angeles, are already dealing with some of the biggest vessels on the water, capable of carrying the equivalent of 13,000 container units — vessels too big to pass through the new Panama Canal locks....
The unfortunate outcome could be they are all getting ready to throw a post-PANAMAX party - and nobody came.

It appears that the Florida Coast is "not making it". While it has reasonable earnings from running a railroad (Net Railway Operating Income), their debt service costs owing to their high debt to equity capitalization exceeds their operating income. As I've previously noted, no interchange (NS CSX; what do they need FEC for? They serve every other port from Boston to New Orleans) is interested, which means that if there is to be expectation that the substantial investment of public funds made in the South Florida ports is to "pay", reliable rail transportation is essential.

The State is the buyer of immediate source.

So how does this passenger service initiative play into the picture? It simply generates public visibility so that when the private equity concern that owns FEC approaches the State to buy the road, all this public excitement about passenger trains will translate to voters saying "buy it" (or we'll find someone else to vote for). But since the political climate in Florida, with its ever increasing conservative tilt, will have nothing to do with publicly funded passenger trains beyond the existing Tri Rail and the "in the works" Sun Rail, this passenger service proposal simply represents a "faux".
  by Champlain Division
 
I'm with Gilbert. While I'm all for passenger trains, especially new ones, I'm NOT for them being used as a ruse to cover corporate financial problems. As soon as I first heard of this proposal, my B.S. meter started heading for the peg; now, it's pegged and threatening to snap the needle right off!!!
  by Noel Weaver
 
Come on! Let's not be so negative on this one. While I have doubts that it will begin or be ready in 2014 nothing is impossible. I do think it has a very good chance of happening. The Florida East Coast has already announced the station locations in both Miami and Fort Lauderdale and more announcements will come as this plan goes forward. The Florida East Coast has been an innovator in many ways in years past and I have no doubt that this can succeed if given a chance. For the information of all CSX has no facilites in South Florida for IM anymore, they turn all of their IM traffic over to the FEC at Bowden Yard, Jacksonville. CSX does not directly serve either the Port of Miami nor Port Everglades either, any traffic to or from either also rides the FEC. Most of what the Florida East Coast has endeavered to do over a long period of time they have been successful at and I don't think they would be starting something of this nature if they did not intend and plan to succeed.
Noel Weaver
  by Jeff Smith
 
I'm with Mr. Weaver. There have been concrete steps announced. While I think the plan is targeted towards maximizing return on investment in primarily the real estate owned, I think some of the announcements indicate more than a pr ploy. Unless we're talking JP Morgan NH genius here, I think this happens.
  by Arlington
 
Here's a question: how can you (does anyone) mix even 2-hourly 79pmh trains with standard intermodal freight speeds? Is there a comparable corridor that works well at serving freight nodes like Miami and FLL and at the same time runs decent-frequency passenger service?

Seems to me that to have decent service during the day, they'd need to run all their freight services at night.
  by mtuandrew
 
Arlington wrote:Here's a question: how can you (does anyone) mix even 2-hourly 79pmh trains with standard intermodal freight speeds? Is there a comparable corridor that works well at serving freight nodes like Miami and FLL and at the same time runs decent-frequency passenger service?

Seems to me that to have decent service during the day, they'd need to run all their freight services at night.
From what I understand (though Mr. Weaver would need to confirm) the FEC runs all of its trains at 50 or 60 mph anyway - even rock trains. This line should have no trouble fitting passenger trains into the mix, especially since there will be station stops on the current FEC mainline that reduce the passengers' average speed to more-or-less match the rest of the traffic.
  by Champlain Division
 
Arlington wrote:Here's a question: how can you (does anyone) mix even 2-hourly 79pmh trains with standard intermodal freight speeds? Is there a comparable corridor that works well at serving freight nodes like Miami and FLL and at the same time runs decent-frequency passenger service?

Seems to me that to have decent service during the day, they'd need to run all their freight services at night.
Does the Amtrak/CSX Empire Corridor/Chicago Line qualify?
  by Noel Weaver
 
There are a lot of different railroad lines where freight and passenger trains mix without many problems. Freight train speeds on the FEC are presently 60 MPH but a few years ago they were 65 MPH. On the Amtrak test train back in the spring of 2010 I rode the dome car and had a speed indicator right next to me. We were given federal permission to operate 79 MPH in some areas and we had no problem doing just that. I think the main reason the speeds for freight trains was reduced from 65 to 60 was to reduce fuel consumption, this is the reason that the top IM speeds on Conrail were reduced from 70 MPH to 60 MPH way back in my working days. I think 110 MPH passenger trains will mix with the freight trains on this line without any major problems with either one. As I have said previously, I think we are in for some interesting times here in Florida.
Noel Weaver
  by goodnightjohnwayne
 
Gilbert B Norman wrote:Despite all the hoopla that the general circulation, and even the business, media has engendered over this proposal, I still contend that no revenue passenger mile of transportation will move over the Florida East Coast FOR THEIR OWN ACCOUNT. While the proposed Amtrak operation over FEC lines may or may not move forth, that is independent of this proposal.

As I've noted over at this topic, there is distinct possibility that the East Coast maritime ports, of which Miami is one of such, may be on a ruinous competitive run. For ready reference, here is The Times article from which I draw this thought:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/21/us/us ... pands.html

Brief passage:

  • Moving goods by water is generally cheaper than moving them by land because of the economies of scale of moving so many containers on those big ships, said John Martin, a ports consultant in Lancaster, Pa. So that would suggest canal routes will offer lower-cost shipping to the East Coast and Midwest through the canal.

    But, he said, containers loaded on the West Coast, which has built up its container yards and highway and rail infrastructure, can outrun those that travel to the East Coast by water, and that can make the difference when speed and dependability are more important than cost alone. Besides, he added, costs and fees can shift; Panama can be expected to raise rates for canal passage, and “the railroads are not going to sit idly by” and let the water route undercut their businessScudder Smith, a consultant with the engineering consulting firm Parsons Brinkerhoff, said that a water passage, “all things being equal, will cause cost reductions — but all things are not equal,” he added, and so “I’m not at all confident in any numbers.”

    That could be why J. Christopher Lytle, executive director of the Port of Long Beach, does not sound a bit worried. “There’s just not going to be a huge movement of cargo from the West Coast to the East Coast,” he said.

    His port, and its counterpart in Los Angeles, are already dealing with some of the biggest vessels on the water, capable of carrying the equivalent of 13,000 container units — vessels too big to pass through the new Panama Canal locks....
The unfortunate outcome could be they are all getting ready to throw a post-PANAMAX party - and nobody came.

It appears that the Florida Coast is "not making it". While it has reasonable earnings from running a railroad (Net Railway Operating Income), their debt service costs owing to their high debt to equity capitalization exceeds their operating income. As I've previously noted, no interchange (NS CSX; what do they need FEC for? They serve every other port from Boston to New Orleans) is interested, which means that if there is to be expectation that the substantial investment of public funds made in the South Florida ports is to "pay", reliable rail transportation is essential.

The State is the buyer of immediate source.

So how does this passenger service initiative play into the picture? It simply generates public visibility so that when the private equity concern that owns FEC approaches the State to buy the road, all this public excitement about passenger trains will translate to voters saying "buy it" (or we'll find someone else to vote for). But since the political climate in Florida, with its ever increasing conservative tilt, will have nothing to do with publicly funded passenger trains beyond the existing Tri Rail and the "in the works" Sun Rail, this passenger service proposal simply represents a "faux".
1. I'm not taking the Panama canal expansion all that seriously, but I do think that there's the potential for container traffic from Asia, through the expanded canal to East Coast ports. Why? Labor problems and a history of strikes at West Coast terminals! It would be very desirable to bypass the congestion of the various West Coast ports, and even the ability to do so might minimize the risk of future strikes. Of course, with Newark, NJ terminal currently going on strike, it might make sense to offload in Florida in the future, even for East Coast bound shipping. There aren't many waterfront workers anymore, but they certainly are prone to strikes and labor issues.

2. I'm well aware that every time companies are bought and sold, the debt burden tends to increase. I'm also aware that the FEC is effected by the general state of the Florida economy, as well as the disappearance of one particular source of traffic. I do think that the proposed Orlando link might have a positive impact on interchange and would lead to an increase in overall freight traffic. There's a pragmatic justification for this project beyond passenger service, and truth be know, rail freight should always be a consideration when building a new intercity railroad right of way.

3. I'm entirely in favor of this FEC proposal. It makes sense in terms of geography, demographics and economics. It fills an obvious need in terms of rail freight infrastructure as well as passenger rail. This is the HSR project that should have been funded with Federal grant money, not the ill-starred project to connect Orlando with Tampa Airport. It's worthy of taxpayer money, but if it can be entirely privately funded, all the better. Henry Flagler would be proud.
  by Jeff Smith
 
I don't think we've really discussed this possibility, and if we did I apologize, but because of the value of the real estate, could FEC be looking at an IPO?

Florida East Coast earnings improve; will there be an IPO?
Florida East Coast Holdings Corp. reported improved quarterly results as we wait for the company to launch an initial public offering. At least, I’m waiting for the Jacksonville-based railroad company’s IPO. It seems inevitable.

Florida East Coast operates the historic 351-mile railroad from Jacksonville to Miami that was built by Henry Flagler a century ago.

Its parent company, Florida East Coast Industries Inc., was acquired by funds affiliated with Fortress Investment Group LLC in 2007, the same year that Fortress acquired RailAmerica Inc.

Fortress took Jacksonville-based RailAmerica public in 2009 and recently reached an agreement to sell the entire company to Genesee and Wyoming Inc.
  by Noel Weaver
 
Jeff Smith wrote:I don't think we've really discussed this possibility, and if we did I apologize, but because of the value of the real estate, could FEC be looking at an IPO?

Florida East Coast earnings improve; will there be an IPO?
Florida East Coast Holdings Corp. reported improved quarterly results as we wait for the company to launch an initial public offering. At least, I’m waiting for the Jacksonville-based railroad company’s IPO. It seems inevitable.

Florida East Coast operates the historic 351-mile railroad from Jacksonville to Miami that was built by Henry Flagler a century ago.

Its parent company, Florida East Coast Industries Inc., was acquired by funds affiliated with Fortress Investment Group LLC in 2007, the same year that Fortress acquired RailAmerica Inc.

Fortress took Jacksonville-based RailAmerica public in 2009 and recently reached an agreement to sell the entire company to Genesee and Wyoming Inc.
The FEC has a huge amount of real estate all over Florida but expecially in these parts. I think the proposed station sites in both Miami and Fort Lauderdale are on land they already own. Rail America is being sold but Fortress is not selling the FEC. As for an IPO, I don't recall anything being discussed down here about such a happening but I think it is possible.
Noel Weaver
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