Arrow III Thread

[nick11a]

Yesterday I took my usual trek back from Berkeley Heights to New Brunswick. This time I decided to go through Hoboken rather than Secaucus. So after the 10-15 minute break at Summit, we were off again. From Short Hills to about the MMC I drifted off asleep (college is killer.) Then, when I woke up at the MMC, I woke up to silence and no lights. We were apparently in the Phase Gap at the MMC and were heading about 5 or less mph. I heard the sound of the air brakes releasing. Since I have never experienced something like this yet, it was a surprise. Usually, all the times I was on the MUs going through a PG, we were going at a good speed and when we entered the gap, the dynamic braking provided the cars with power. My question is if an MU is going slow during and losing speed in a gap, can an engineer turn off dynamic braking so that the train can carry on its momentum to get through it? I figured it was either that or we were going so slow that the dynamic braking wasn't generating enough electricity and became ineffective. Towards the end of the black out, we started going real slow. I wasn't sure if we were going to make it. But if we cleared the gap itself but didn't reach the restart point, then the engineer could just by himself restart the train right?

[DutchRailnut]

how long is the Phase Gap ??? on Metro North's New Haven line the gap is only 120' long. and on some bridges its about 360 feet but that is max lenght.

[Jtgshu]

Im not qualified on the territory over there, but it seems that it is a similar set up to Red Bank....there is a signal right past the phase gap. So if that signal is say a stop signal or a stop and proceed or restricting, or any signal which would require the trian to go very slow, the engineer cannot draw power from the MU's while any part of the trian is in the phasegap, so he must coast through the phasegap. He cannot draw power until the entire trian is out because one pan on one car may be in the one section of wire, and another pan is in another section.

If the engineer were to completely loose all momentum, because he is purely coasting at this point, he could drop all the pans of the train, and raise only one, say of the lead pair or car, and drag the train out of the phasegap.

This happened a couple of times at Red Bank, because there are often meets at Red Bank, and the signals quite often "Flip" which means when a train is on the other track, a wire somewhere is crossed and sometimes makes the signal you are looking at go wacko, say from a clear to a restricting or whatever, and sometimes it lasts long enough for the cab signals to pick it up, and they then have a heartattack, requiring the engineer to do a brake application so the trian doesn't dump. If the train does stop or is going real slow, the engineer would drop the pans and leave only the leading one up, and drag the train through, then raise the pans once everything was clear.

Im sure an engineer or someone can give a better explaination exactly about how MU's and phase gaps work, and the dyanamic breaking and lights and stuff, but that is how i understand it

[nick11a]

Yeah, that sounds right to me. On another side note, I always love passing through phase gaps. It is amazing how quiet the C2/3/4/5s and the MUs can be when not being powered. In fact, my signature is based on going through the PG at Kearny.

[hsr_fan]

How much longer will the Arrow III's last without a rebuild, and has NJ Transit made a decision on whether or not they will be rebuilt vs replaced?

[Jtgshu]

I did see an NJT's finanacial analysis' spreadsheet of future expenditures a few months back, and I believe they were staring in 2007-2008 FY with the rebuilding of the MU's. But he mentioned that there were a LOT of things that could happen between now and then - and this "money" is all "fake" and projections about what MIGHT come NJT's way.

So in reality, probably until they crap out one by one, and when they run out of storage space around the system to park the ailings ones will they start the rebuild process........

[Olton Hall]

I recently saw in some funding documents that indicated that the Arrows needed to be replaced in 5 to 10 years but on another page was the midlife overhaul of the Arrow III. Go figure? They have let out an engineering contract for the overhaul of the CIII, CIV, and AIII's.

[njtmnrrbuff]

I can tell you one thing; if transit cannot elevate more of the platforms on the Montclair-Boonton, at least they could use MUs as well the Morris and Essex.

[hsr_fan]

I hope that they do rebuild the Arrow III's and keep them around for a long time. I also hope that the rebuild is done by a competent company, and that the Arrow III's will run reliably for many years and once again be cleared for 100 mph operation. Also, I assume they will be modified for 25 kV, 60 Hz catenary capability.

How about the ALP-44's? They've gotta be approaching their first overhaul.

[nick11a]

The Arrow IIIs fate is still unkown. I hope they're around for quite a bit longer as they're damn fine pieces of equipment.

Don't expect an ALP44 overhaul too soon. They're doing pretty good. The ones that can be trouble though (as I have found out first hand on a few occasions) are the ALP44Os (4400-4414) and the ALP44Es (4415-4419). And keep in mind, the ALP44Ms (4420-4431) were only built around 97 or so.

[ryanov]

I've been stranded twice for awhile by 4408.

[BlockLine_4111]

I also hope that the rebuild is done by a competent company, and that the Arrow III's will run reliably for many years and once again be cleared for 100 mph operation. Also, I assume they will be modified for 25 kV, 60 Hz catenary capability.

I think you meant being able to switch on the fly 25kV/60Hz, 12.5kV/60Hz. 11kV/25Hz.

[nick11a]

I also hope that the rebuild is done by a competent company, and that the Arrow III's will run reliably for many years and once again be cleared for 100 mph operation. Also, I assume they will be modified for 25 kV, 60 Hz catenary capability.

I think you meant being able to switch on the fly 25kV/60Hz, 12.5kV/60Hz. 11kV/25Hz.

If and when they're rebuilt, it's a sure bet they'll be able to switch on the fly.

[Irish Chieftain]

I've often wondered if there would have been a cost difference between a full rebuild of Arrow Is and IIs (with long doors and on-the-fly transformer tap changing) to complement the IIIs (which should have gotten the long doors during their last rebuild), versus buying more Comets and ALP-44s to pull them...because, with the end of engine changes, the Comets do not travel past electrified territory on revenue runs when they have an electric motor as power.

[catch]

By the way to this, two things / questions:

1st, Is there really 12.5kV/60Hz still in use?
2st, to pass the stations with a train, where overhead line ends, a hybrid loco would be a good solution ( 12kV / 25kV / diesel). Might be possible on 4 axles (3rd rail in addition, wouldn't, I guess). What do you think?

Best wishes