Amtrak, TSA, Security, Police, Criminal Activity Thread

[johndoty]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/05/04/ ... index.html

Apparently, Amtrak and MARC are piloting a new kind of security screener...you can read about the details above. What are your reactions? Thoughts? Thanks.

[jfrey40535]

Unfortunately I guess the security is a requirement considering how much our country is inflaming certain parts of the world right now. Sooner or later, I'm sure Amtrak or the NEC will be a target.

I think its really the wrong approach though, and I must say that with ticket prices and travel times being what they are, if it becomes inconvenient to use Amtrak because I have to walk through a sniffer, I'll drive. I really think this is nonsense.

Instead of high tech bomb sniffers, why not just up the presence of Amtrak Police and their dogs....or if thats not possible, why not just have people (passengers included) pay closer attention to who they're riding with. Someone who wants to do something that bad should stick out like a sore thumb. And if they're not planning on doing something as a passenger, then this security measure is a waste of our time and money.

Furthermore, our system is so open as it is, that more damage could be done away from the stations where security is nil and will always be nil. An attack away from a hub might produce less fatalities, but it would grind things to a hault. I'm sure everyone here knows of a Amtrak bridge or area in a area that is not high profile. Living in Philly, I know many as the NEC passes through some of the poorest and unkept neighborhoods, where you could park a truck loaded with something bad and no one would notice until after the fact.

Has Amtrak asked local law enforcement to pay attention to the ROW in their areas? Or bothered to make obvious changes like 'NO PARKING' zones near bridges? Of course not!

So I'm inclinded to say that every effort so far will only hurt commuters and riders and Amtrak. Suprised?

[Robert Paniagua]

Yeah, I first heard that on NPR News last night and saw it this morning on CBS Morning edition, and its the same exact device that I walked thru at the base of the CN Tower in Toronto a few weeks ago, they have that same exact thing. Pretty nifty, I like the air packets that come out of the machine.

[walt]

I saw the local ( DC Chnnel 9) story on that security system last night. Seeing a woman going through that scanner made me wonder just how that system will go over with women who have just spent hours doing their hair? The story also indicated that the next test will occur, probably in July, at Union Station.

[John_Perkowski]

Folks,


Let's have a dose of reality check here. Trains run along the ground. That means people can get to them. If you harden the passenger terminal, the point of attack will shift to someplace softer.

This isn't rocket science, it's Sun Tzu... "Appear at points which the enemy must hasten to defend; march swiftly to places where you are not expected."

and again...
"You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.
"[Wang Hsi explains "undefended places" as "weak points; that is to say, where the general is lacking in capacity, or the soldiers in spirit; where the walls are not strong enough, or the precautions not strict enough; where relief comes too late, or pr ovisions are too scanty, or the defenders are variance amongst themselves."]"

Without discounting the value of even one human life, most passenger train wrecks are pretty low order events for the risk assumed in a deliberate attack. There are events along a railroad that will do more damage to both the grid and the civil infrastructure. Those events also have less risk.

My professional thoughts. Hit me in private message if you want bona fides.

John

[walt]

John--- I suspect that there aren't too many who would question the idea that there isn't, really, much that can be done to fully protect our rail systems for exactly the reasons you cite. I also suspect that the New Carrollton experiment, as well as others, fall into the category of "do something"---- "do anything"------ regardless of whether it will really be effective.

[John_Perkowski]

Walt ... I'm still under oath "to support and defend the Constitution of the United states against..."

That doesn't mean I have to like a single politician of either party.

Welll... maybe Condoleeza Rice. Way back in high school physics I sat with the class valedictorian. I got this thing for intelligent, beautiful women :D

"Do something...anything" is the start of thinking that leads to pressure on the field forces, and ethical (and humanitarian) debacles like Abu Ghraib.

John

[walt]

John---- I agree---- and I'm also under oath ( to protect and defend the Maryland State Constitution)---- I don't defend the "do anything" theory, I'm just afraid that it is too pervasive among politicians and others of BOTH political parties.

[John_Perkowski]

Walt,

I'll assume state level law enforcement (vice the Maryland National Guard).

What common protective measures can ordainary police/RR police do?

While being a foamer is a great cover for someone taking a reconaissance, is there some way we can leverage the fan community on their regular routings to report stuff that's beyond the norm?

John

[Gilbert B Norman]

A few thoughts come to mind as I read this Topic thread and surmise what is now in place at New Carrolton.

First, I can recall a security screening during 1986 to ride Belfast-Dublin on NIR/CIE. The nature and scope of the screening was roundly the same as that at airports pre-9/11. I further understand that to board the London-Paris Eurostar today nvolves a full airport style screening.

Further, since fingernail cuticles, safety razorblades, metal knives and forks, cannot be used as devices to cause a train to be crashed into a building , the main concern is explosive devices to cause injury to passengers aboard. Therefore, screenings of person and baggage for such aforementioned items, is not likely.

On board use of cellphones and wi-fi laptops could become an issue, but this is counteracted by considering a principal selling point of using the Acela over the Shuttle is the uninterrupted work time with all electronic playthings available throughout the journey. Any sanctions in this area would surely have Amtrak heard from. Discounting any restrainst on the use of on-board wireless communications devices is that, as in Madrid, one need not be aboard to detonate a device. Why go meet Allah now if one can make other infidels go meet whoever later on? Those people aint dumb; and will want to conserve their resources and still accomplish the mission.

I would hope, however, that greater security of equipment "laying over" between runs will be the order of the day. "Pitcher Takers, sorry bout that".

In short, be prepared to accept some degree of security screening when boarding any train, but not to the same level of "smelly feet" and "discrete inspection areas".

[CarterB]

"Whiffers" could be a good idea if they can work them into a 'mass' boarding environment. From some of what I have read, that is exactly what they are working on. A 'passive' system that will 'whiff' many passengers at once. Increased surveillance and dogs are not a bad idea either.

[walt]

John--- actually I am a prosecutor--- doing child support enforcement now, but I have done general criminal work. Prior to my service as a prosecutor I was a Court Commissioner ( Magistrate equvalent). The National Guard, unless called up( by the Governor) and maybe Federalized ( as in the case of riots and some disasters) probably cannot, Constitutionally, be a part of any State based security efforts. In Maryland, MDOT, through the MTA has a police agency, and, since MARC as well as MTA are divisions of MDOT, that police agency could probably be used to do New Carrollton type screening at any MARC station not used in common with Amtrak. If not, it probably wouldn't be that difficult to get enabling legeslation through the General Assembly.

The other option would be to create a division of the Maryland State Police to handle state railroad security. ( until the Feds took over security at BWI Airport, security there was provided by the MSP aviation division and those policing aspects which have not been Federalized are still performed there by MSP)

Generally, the biggest problem that we're going to have, regardless of what police agencies are given authority over what parts of the rail system, is the naturally spread out nature of railroads. It is impossible to provide police survellance of every inch of right of way, or on every railroad car which carries passengers no matter how sophisticated detection and screening equipment becomes. I think that railfans can help by simply being observant, knowing where to report suspicious observations, being understanding when confonted by an authorised security person as they do those things which are legitimately a part of railfanning, and being reasonable and prudent in how they conduct these activities.

One of the things that terrorists intend to do, and at which they are very successful, simply because of the threat of terrorist activity, is to restrict the freedom of movement and of activity of all of us. And I can see no way around having to live with these restrictions in the present climate.

[John_Perkowski]

Walt,

The National Guard can be used, but in an operational security, not law enforcement mode. A Governor would have to delcare a bridge, terminal, ROW as vital infrastructure. He would also have to mandate that it requires military security and military rules of engagement on the use of lethal force.

Your last paragraph is both true and disturbing. I'll say no more.

As for your day job, keep up the good work.

John--- actually I am a prosecutor--- doing child support enforcement now, but I have done general criminal work. Prior to my service as a prosecutor I was a Court Commissioner ( Magistrate equvalent). The National Guard, unless called up( by the Governor) and maybe Federalized ( as in the case of riots and some disasters) probably cannot, Constitutionally, be a part of any State based security efforts.

<snip>

One of the things that terrorists intend to do, and at which they are very successful, simply because of the threat of terrorist activity, is to restrict the freedom of movement and of activity of all of us. And I can see no way around having to live with these restrictions in the present climate.

[Mr. Toy]

Given that the most likely form of attack would be:
1. Bombs on board.
2. Physical attack on the infrastructure somewhere en route.

The most effective deterrents would probably be:
1. Bomb sniffing dogs on patrol on all rail platforms to scope out the passengers.
2. Video surveilance of all sensitive infrastructure points. Particularly bridges and tunnels.

These would be highly effective while offering no significant disruption to traffic flow.

[I Like BNSF]

Not security for me but for my all my electronic gadgets! I seam to be travelling with a lot more now: Camera, Scanner, Laptop, GPS etc. Is it possible to lock the bedroom door on a Superliner or Viewliner when you leave the room?

I’ve always travelled in coach before. Just don’t leave things out in the open and have never had a problem. This is something I don’t see discussed too much. Perhaps train travellers are an honest bunch!